Wavelength | 2014-11-15 05:01:54 |
What is the purpose of this thread?After reading the surprisingly negative comments toward Golem Master in the forums, I started asking people in-game what they think of the class, and it seems like the community overwhelmingly considers Golem Master to be among the least well-designed classes in the game. As such, I'm hoping to spearhead an effort to rework the Golem Master class. I've come up with a baseline set of cards that I believe strengthens the class' theme while addressing the balance and pacing issues that make the current Golem Master unpopular. However, this is just a baseline. I'm hoping not only for feedback, but for suggestions from everyone on what kinds of cards this new Golem Master class should have. If certain suggestions prove popular, I will amend the "current suggestion" to include those cards. Where possible, please suggest cards that would be able to repurpose the art of a current Golem Master card - I think that this will improve our chances of making something happen. What are the problems with the current Golem Master class?
As far as I understand, community consensus holds that Golem Master has the following issues. If you disagree with the following, feel free to say so! * Golem Master relies too heavily on combos with global destruction spells. * Golem Master can sometimes win with too little skill if it goes first and rushes. * Golem Master is known to have one of the highest (Chaos) and lowest (Time) class matchup winrates. * Golem itself can be a huge and almost unfair liability in the late game. * The Golem mechanic is not as fun as it could be. When suggesting cards, please do your best to ensure that these problems will be diminished or absent in the new, suggested Golem Master class! Why the changes to Golem itself?
Under the current suggestion, Golem gains 1 attack each time it kills an enemy creature. Also, there are no temporary buffs to Golem's attack; instead, additions to its attack and maximum life are permanent. With these changes, Golem should be a much more dynamic element in play, and Golem Masters will have a more interesting "endgame dream" of an extremely powerful Golem. Additionally, Golem's stats start out at 2/7 (and it only costs 7 life to respawn), rather than 3/10. The reason for this is to allow the cards themselves to be more powerful and interesting. Although 2/7 looks like a void slot in the first few turns, the new Golem Guide and Golem Mechanic can force a slot win (by Golem) against any mana gainer if the Golem Master wants to commit to it. I believe that the current balance of power between this new, "scalable" Golem and the new class cards will allow the player to make a very real and interesting decision about whether to rush early or to hold out for Golem to get stronger. The changes also theoretically balance out the overall power of the class throughout the game - the Golem Master should be somewhat strong early, weak midgame, and strong again at the end of long games, instead of the current progression of very strong early and gradually weaker throughout. Thanks once again for reading, and for your ideas!!=== THE NEW AND IMPROVED GOLEM MASTERPassive Ability - Golem Master begins the game with Golem in a random slot. When Golem dies, its owner takes 7 damage and Golem Master respawns, with all its bonuses, in a random empty slot. Golem ("cost" 3) (same picture as current) Special creature - 2/7 Golem takes no damage from Spells nor Abilities. When Golem kills an enemy creature, its Attack increases by 1. Golem Guide (picture from G7) Cost 1 3/9 If Golem Guide is summoned opposite a creature, it switches places with Golem. Golem Mechanic (picture from G8) Cost 2 4/11 Each turn, Golem Mechanic heals Golem 1 life. This is increased to 3 life if Golem has less than 5 health. Golem Awakens! (picture from G1) Cost 3 Golem gains 1 attack and 2 max life. Next turn, Golem attacks twice. Upgrade! (picture from G3) Cost 4 Permanently increases all of your creatures' max life by 2 and Golem's attack by 2. Concrete Angel (picture from G2) Cost 5 5/20 Until Concrete Angel performs its first attack, Golem takes no damage from attacks. When Concrete Angel attacks, Golem gains 2 max life. Dr. Frankengolem (picture from G6) Cost 6 3/32 When an enemy creature dies, Golem's max life is increased by 2. While Dr. Frankengolem is in play, Golem receives an extra +1 attack for killing enemy creatures. Steel Without Soul (Picture from G4) Cost 7 Golem is fully healed, then moves into target empty or Golem-occupied slot, and two Imitation Golems are placed into empty slots, prioritizing the slot Golem was in. Imitation Golems have the same stats and statuses as Golem. * Imitation Golem (special creature, "cost" 3) X/Y, where X and Y are Golem's attack/max life Immune to damage from opponent's spells and abilities. This creature appears as a "Golem" to your opponent. If you damage it with a spell or ability or Golem dies, this creatures becomes "Imitation Golem - Revealed". * Imitation Golem - Revealed (special creature, "cost" 3) X/Y, where X and Y are that of the Imitation Golem when it's revealed Immune to damage from opponent's spells and abilities. Dr. Golemnik (picture from G5) Cost 8, 6/38 When Dr. Golemnik is summoned, Golem attacks opponent and each opponent's creature. When Dr. Golemnik dies, he deals damage to the opponent equal to Golem's attack bonus. Modified by Wavelength on 2014-11-17 23:41:02 Wavelength | 2014-11-15 05:04:22 |
(reserving this post for later on)
FORESTRY | 2014-11-15 10:13:37 |
What are the problems with the current Golem Master class?
As far as I understand, community consensus holds that Golem Master has the following issues. If you disagree with the following, feel free to say so!
* Golem Master relies too heavily on combos with global destruction spells. * Golem Master can sometimes win with too little skill if it goes first and rushes. * Golem Master is known to have one of the highest (Chaos) and lowest (Time) class matchup winrates. * Golem itself can be a huge and almost unfair liability in the late game. * The Golem mechanic is not as fun as it could be.
*It would actually be INTERESTING to see players put to use the destruct synergy, but i never actually see it put to use. *Forest has also this thing, but the bunny is not invulnerable to sweeps. *Id say its strongest against Death and Dominator from personal experience. *Actually I think Golem either rushes down or dies in late game. *I think its stupid brute force play all the time.
Golem wins or loses are decided by DRAW and basic TACTICS, there is no room for STRATEGY... just overwhelm with Bargul, Turtle, Troll, Spiders, Orc Chieftain, Cloud and its gg.
As Ive said before, the class design around the concept of a 100% rushy class is well done, but the concept of a 100% rushy class is what is wrong... even Forest at higher levels of skill can make a decent late game instead of just blind rushing.
Modified by FORESTRY on 2014-11-15 10:22:04 Sinist | 2014-11-15 10:24:57 |
...
*It would actually be INTERESTING to see players put to use the destruct synergy, but i never actually see it put to use. *Forest has also this thing, but the bunny is not invulnerable to sweeps. *Id say its strongest against Death and Dominator from personal experience. *Actually I think Golem either rushes down or dies in late game. *I think its stupid brute force play all the time.
Golem wins or loses are decided by DRAW and basic TACTICS, there is no room for STRATEGY... just overwhelm with Bargul, Turtle, Troll, Spiders, Orc Chieftain, Cloud and its gg.
+100 The main problem with golem master is that, unlike forest, it is not viable in late game (and dont get me started about golem 4 - it is weak compensation for regular losses of 10 hp). Either rush early or die. If I were developer, I would simply replace golem master with one of class suggestions... However, I am fond of Wave`s more moderate changes
Ruby456 | 2014-11-15 14:26:30 |
GoLem Master is by SeLF a LITTLE Weak i think if go to Power 4 /15 than the game with Golem Master, take a good change point winning by 40 % against some stronger classes Afcourse depend what decide Developers Now aLL big and Middle Creatures kill hem in only 2 rounds ! some Player do fun's when kill's this Weaker Golem Master , after tell's ha ha ha ha u are a weak Player that means i'm a Weak Player if i try Play with this class ... Butt we know , today all players goes to kill this Golem Master why ? This is becouse Than U lost 10 Points from Ur Life
and + some Air 8 or 6 that's it U losse the Game ...No earth 4 no HeaLing Cards ur cLass Golem M die !@! sorry of my bad EngLih good luck with this change if Golem M goes to be Changing ...
i have always felt that the golem master should be about trying to build a powerful robocop as the duel progresses!
i really like your suggestions wave!
Modified by filip on 2014-11-15 14:52:18 Ruby456 | 2014-11-15 22:04:17 |
Then My Suggestion is Bad filip LvL 34 ?! Here is a Creation of Mine simple Picture with a Hammer ( same Like In Mechanic CLASS just a Fantasy of Mine) Thx for Reaction PLAYERS AND DEVELOPERS and Programmers Cooler U to ..So good to PLAY Spectromancer I'm GLADE with this Game ! nott matter Truth and Beauty or The Gathering Power . ALL alse cards Plays is Bad in ONLINE ...
Here is My Pic i change format to JPEG from Power Point ... I hope U Like It . Tankyou ...
TheAtheist | 2014-11-16 11:44:51 |
Have no problem with a few tweaks here and there but I think much of what you said about golum could be said about mad hermit ?
Im not sure you can even it up though without other tweaks to Chrono ....
Why does it do so well against chaos? I would have thought sorcery would have been a poor match up for Golum
Sinist | 2014-11-16 12:02:51 |
Have no problem with a few tweaks here and there but I think much of what you said about golum could be said about mad hermit ?
Im not sure you can even it up though without other tweaks to Chrono ....
Why does it do so well against chaos? I would have thought sorcery would have been a poor match up for Golum It is not about tweaking, it is about redesigning. No, rabbit is not spell immune, rabbit doesnt deal to his owner 10 dmg every time it dies
GarryHe | 2014-11-16 22:52:43 |
Hey Jason! Brilliant idea. It looks OK but we need to test. Also I'm a bit afraid that Golem might be too strong in your suggestion. How about if we can have a new Golem (we call it betaGolem) in the game constructed as the way you suggested. BUT, this new class can not be used to dual, trainning only and people can play around and see which one they like and think is more fair.
Hey Jason! Brilliant idea. It looks OK but we need to test. Also I'm a bit afraid that Golem might be too strong in your suggestion.How about if we can have a new Golem (we call it betaGolem) in the game constructed as the way you suggested. BUT, this new class can not be used to dual, trainning only and people can play around and see which one they like and think is more fair. Hey Garry! Good idea.It looks OK.But I want know why u quit the qq group?
CyberneticPony | 2014-11-17 20:47:48 |
If this was such a problem, why wasn't it redesigned earlier?
Wavelength | 2014-11-18 00:09:07 |
I have buffed every card in the set, and reduced Golem's initial stats to 2/7. I believe this allows the cards themselves to shine more, and reduces Golem's ability to blindly rush empty slots early but allows it to retain its early control over the board. Any critique or suggestions on the changes are welcome!And of course, any ideas for cards that might work even better than the ones I have proposed are always welcome. i have always felt that the golem master should be about trying to build a powerful robocop as the duel progresses!
i really like your suggestions wave!
Once I started hearing all the complaints about the way Golem Master is now, I thought back to that thread, where you first proposed the idea of having Golem slowly build up to a crescendo of power throughout the game. I didn't remember who proposed it, or what the actual changes were, but it was most definitely the inspiration for this more radical idea for a rework! So thank you, Filip!! *It would actually be INTERESTING to see players put to use the destruct synergy, but i never actually see it put to use.*Forest has also this thing, but the bunny is not invulnerable to sweeps. *Id say its strongest against Death and Dominator from personal experience. *Actually I think Golem either rushes down or dies in late game. *I think its stupid brute force play all the time.
Golem wins or loses are decided by DRAW and basic TACTICS, there is no room for STRATEGY... just overwhelm with Bargul, Turtle, Troll, Spiders, Orc Chieftain, Cloud and its gg.
As Ive said before, the class design around the concept of a 100% rushy class is well done, but the concept of a 100% rushy class is what is wrong... even Forest at higher levels of skill can make a decent late game instead of just blind rushing. Have no problem with a few tweaks here and there but I think much of what you said about golum could be said about mad hermit ?
Im not sure you can even it up though without other tweaks to Chrono ....
Why does it do so well against chaos? I would have thought sorcery would have been a poor match up for Golum I think I can address most of the items in both these comments at once. Winrates: http://spectromancer.com/attach/1416.jpg This is copied directly from the "Fresh Statistics" thread. I was a little surprised that Chaos is its best matchup, but if you think about it... it completely no-sells Chaos 3 and Chaos 7 (and the opponent can't control where they're aiming it), it ignores what Chaos 5 tries to do (the same way it does well vs. Dominator), and Golem itself is immune to Chaos 4. Only Chaos 8 really seems to do well against Golem, and by then it's often too late. Like Forestry alluded to, the immunity to sweeps and life cost to replace Golem really make it an early-game-only kind of class. Your power curve generally gets weaker and weaker the later the game goes, and I believe there is a strong consensus that this is problematic for the design of the class. Some of the suggested class cards (such as Concrete Angel, which makes Hasten hurt less), as well as the ability for Golem's life to increase throughout the game, are attempts to give Golem Master better tools against Time. Forestry, do you think this is an appropriate approach to solving some of the problems you listed? If not, what would you do? If I were developer, I would simply replace golem master with one of class suggestions... However, I am fond of Wave`s more moderate changes
Thank you!! I appreciate the compliment. I like Golem Master better than you do; I do think it can be fun at times. So I made this thread to hopefully figure out a way to keep and enhance the fun concept, while addressing the class' many problems. GoLem Master is by SeLF a LITTLE Weak i think if go to Power 4 /15 than the game with Golem Master, take a good change point winning by 40 % against some stronger classes Afcourse depend what decide Developers Now aLL big and Middle Creatures kill hem in only 2 rounds !
Good point about how many creatures can 2-shot Golem. But the problem with giving it such good initial stats as 4/15 would be that Golem could simply flood the board with mid-tier creatures and win almost every game by turn 7. If this was such a problem, why wasn't it redesigned earlier? If you're suggesting the lack of a redesign means that the class isn't problematic, then your argument is flawed. Here are other flawed arguments I could make along the same logic: * If Final Fantasy 14's original release was such a problem, why wasn't it remade earlier? * If the USA's health insurance system is broken, why wasn't it reformed earlier? * If John Carter (the movie) was doomed to flop, why wasn't it cancelled earlier? * If the Peace of Ghent wasn't sufficient, why wasn't it amended earlier? * If smoking is so bad for your health, why didn't we have anti-smoking campaigns earlier? I guess sometimes problems just take a little while before they're fixed! Hey Jason! Brilliant idea. It looks OK but we need to test. Also I'm a bit afraid that Golem might be too strong in your suggestion.How about if we can have a new Golem (we call it betaGolem) in the game constructed as the way you suggested. BUT, this new class can not be used to dual, trainning only and people can play around and see which one they like and think is more fair. Hey Garry! Good idea.It looks OK.But I want know why u quit the qq group? Are you guys suggesting programming this in your Spectro mod or something like that? That would be incredible!! I would love it and would be happy to help in any way possible. Also, thank you for the compliments. I agree that the current look of the suggestion might be overpowered overall - but it can be used as a starting point. FORESTRY | 2014-11-18 09:42:54 |
THE NEW AND IMPROVED GOLEM MASTER Passive Ability - Golem Master begins the game with Golem in a random slot. When Golem dies, its owner takes 7 damage and Golem Master respawns, with all its bonuses, in a random empty slot.
Golem ("cost" 3) (same picture as current) Special creature - 2/7 Golem takes no damage from Spells nor Abilities. When Golem kills an enemy creature, its Attack increases by 1.
Golem Guide (picture from G7) Cost 1 3/9 If Golem Guide is summoned opposite a creature, it switches places with Golem.
Golem Mechanic (picture from G8) Cost 2 4/11 Each turn, Golem Mechanic heals Golem 1 life. This is increased to 3 life if Golem has less than 5 health.
Golem Awakens! (picture from G1) Cost 3 Golem gains 1 attack and 2 max life. Next turn, Golem attacks twice.
Upgrade! (picture from G3) Cost 4 Permanently increases all of your creatures' max life by 2 and Golem's attack by 2.
Concrete Angel (picture from G2) Cost 5 5/20 Until Concrete Angel performs its first attack, Golem takes no damage from attacks. When Concrete Angel attacks, Golem gains 2 max life.
Dr. Frankengolem (picture from G6) Cost 6 3/32 When an enemy creature dies, Golem's max life is increased by 2. While Dr. Frankengolem is in play, Golem receives an extra +1 attack for killing enemy creatures.
Steel Without Soul (Picture from G4) Cost 7 Golem is fully healed, then moves into target empty or Golem-occupied slot, and two Imitation Golems are placed into empty slots, prioritizing the slot Golem was in. Imitation Golems have the same stats and statuses as Golem.
* Imitation Golem (special creature, "cost" 3) X/Y, where X and Y are Golem's attack/max life Immune to damage from opponent's spells and abilities. This creature appears as a "Golem" to your opponent. If you damage it with a spell or ability or Golem dies, this creatures becomes "Imitation Golem - Revealed".
* Imitation Golem - Revealed (special creature, "cost" 3) X/Y, where X and Y are that of the Imitation Golem when it's revealed Immune to damage from opponent's spells and abilities.
Dr. Golemnik (picture from G5) Cost 8, 6/38 When Dr. Golemnik is summoned, Golem attacks opponent and each opponent's creature. When Dr. Golemnik dies, he deals damage to the opponent equal to Golem's attack bonus. Its complicated to give a "solution"... how to avoid being draw the deciding factor in who wins? The easy answer is debuffing its blind rush capability, and give it versatility for mid and late game. The hard question is how? So Idk, ill just focus my efforts on your current propositions instead of proposing something myself.
*1: (3/9) (ratio:15.8) which puts it between GoblinLooter and SpectralAssasin in terms of proportional durability... its hard to measure the value of switching the place of Golem at a given moment, also considering that its not a free getaway for Golem, but a change for Golem to engage... perhaps 4/9 stats would be better since i feel it is too weak, or 3/10 for that matter to be closer to Paladin ratio.
*2: (4/11) (ratio: 12.9) Between priest of fire and mindmaster... its a very conditional heal, but if the conditions are met, how strong can it possibly be?... it effectively makes it immortal against 3 attk creatures, and if theres 3 out there on the board for some reason, it would scale so that Golem could effectively block a Bargul or Titan if it was originally at 10 HP... i personally think its far too conditional and not powerful enough for the given conditional that loses its value after turn 4.
*3: This type of card can make Golem scary in long games... so at what point buffing golem crosses over at being more efficient than simply summoning another creature?... and how much buff is too much? I have no idea
*4: So far this is the only card i like xD, its kind of a preemptive Ritual of the Forest which can really mess with the opponents 1st sweep calculation... the problem is that its only good for that situation, in late game situations this would be a waste of mana.
*5 (5/20) (ratio: 58.8) between Gobo Zerk and Great Bargul, so its brute presence statistics, which has no place in Golem class, because just as Forest, the "free" creature is included in the math (thats why all Forest has $%&/ statistics, because bunny value is ALWAYS deducted)... Also, getting a free permabuff from each attack it makes? if it lives for 3 turns thats 6 free hps of permabuff which sounds broken... something like 4/19, 3/25, 5/15 stats would make its presence appropriate,
*6 (3/32) (ratio: 9.4) e11 and a9 rangeish which is fine... Frankengolem into Destruct play... i guess this is ok.
*7 i think this needs greater explanation and why theres 2 versions of imitation golem instead of 1.
*8 (6/38) (ratio: 16.7) between Justicar and Banshee, which is bordering on too strong... so, upon arrival it does Hasten, and when it dies its ShadowFlame on Golem? I think you have to pick one of the effects, having both of them is too much.
So mmm, this rework does adress the problem of forced and blind retarded rushes and it has transformed it into a kind of style of play similar to Death in the sense of long-term play, but instead of a great focus on creature control spells and efficiency, its about scaling presence... seems interesting.
Just remember, Ancient Horror invalidates entire class, so reconsider Golem's cost.
CyberneticPony | 2014-11-18 17:17:53 |
If you're suggesting the lack of a redesign means that the class isn't problematic, then your argument is flawed.
I actually wasn't suggesting that, I was just wondering why it wasn't redesigned earlier? It seems like these problems would have been caught in testing pretty easily.
Sinist | 2014-11-18 18:34:47 |
... I actually wasn't suggesting that, I was just wondering why it wasn't redesigned earlier? It seems like these problems would have been caught in testing pretty easily.
Oh really? Then we would not have goblin heroes with 3/17 (!!!) stats in the game till latest addon
Wavelength | 2014-11-18 20:25:35 |
@FORESTRY Thanks for the analysis! I think you made a few mistakes though?: * How does Concrete Angel at 5/20 Cost 5 come to a 58.8 ratio? XD * I think Shadowflame is a poor analogy for Dr. Golemnik's second effect. It's more like a quarter-Natural Fury. It does damage to the opponent ( not their creatures) equal to Golem's attack bonus (not its total attack). So if Golem (2/7 start) is next to Orc Chieftain (+2), has killed 3 enemies (+3), and was buffed once by Upgrade (+2), it will do 5 damage (+3 and +2). Also Golem isn't destroyed =) * I'm surprised you're the first one to get confused on Steel Without Soul, to be honest! It's very complicated on paper, but easier to understand in play. Basically, when you play SWS, the "Immitation Golems" come into play and they look like Golems to your opponent and they act like Golems (e.g. they are healed by Golem Mechanic). Once the opponent can know that it is not the real Golem (e.g. the real Golem died and respawned), it becomes an "Immitation Golem - Revealed" and your opponent can see this as an interface convenience, but it also stops earning further bonuses from other Golem cards. There might be easier, cleaner ways to do this, but the point is that not only are you gaining two additional creatures on the board that depend on a strong Golem to be effective, but you're also temporarily "hiding" Golem from your opponent if he tries to life-rush it. * The extreme conditionality of 2 was designed to allow the change of Golem to 2/7. It now (eventually) wins every matchup against mana-gainers if you're willing to commit to this Special 2 creature, and wins fairly quickly if you're also willing to commit a sweep. When an opponent goes first, they can't simply plop their Merfolk Elder down in the 2/7 void slot and laugh at you. But I didn't want to make the card OP in other cases. At a higher level, the really interesting question becomes "what is Golem's value that we must subtract from the cards"? In the class' current form, it's judged to be fairly small (compare Guardian Statue to Timeblazer or Dark Sculptor to Wrath of God... but then again compare Golem's Justice to Chaotic Wave and it looks bigger), but the early value of an extra 3/10 that can respawn to rush is huge, so I believe the class started to suffer when the -10 life cost was needed to compensate for it. Starting with a 2/7 Golem and having it get huge throughout the course of the game based on the class' own cards makes the "total value" of Golem really hard to figure out, but I think it also produces a much gentler power curve that where the cards can be valuable mostly because of the bonuses they are giving to Golem. I actually wasn't suggesting that, I was just wondering why it wasn't redesigned earlier? It seems like these problems would have been caught in testing pretty easily. OK, fair enough. My instinct is that this is because they are not overall balance problems, per se - they are more subtle design problems that sometimes deprive games of interesting decisions and exacerbate the value of getting lucky or unlucky in the draw. Some people have also said the current Golem class is not fun - I think it IS fun, but can be even better by creating that "endgame dream" of a huge, juggernaut of a Golem. This is not the kind of stuff that initially comes out during testing, but only through lots of play and consensus between high-level players. The v1.32 (I think?) change that I proposed (when Golem's winrate was too high) to reduce the extreme synergy with global destruction by banning the Ice Golem + Armageddon and Ice Golem + Stone Rain combos for Golem Masters only were implemented into the game and I believe the class' winrates did balance out more after that - so it lends a little credence to the idea that Golem has this problem of draw-dependent strategies and counters. So to some extent, this has been noticed and addressed in the past, but the widespread dislike toward the class means that it probably didn't go far enough. Modified by Wavelength on 2014-11-18 21:38:36 FORESTRY | 2014-11-18 21:11:00 |
@FORESTRY
Thanks for the analysis! I think you made a few mistakes though?:
* How does Concrete Angel at 5/20 Cost 5 come to a 58.8 ratio? XD
* I think Shadowflame is a poor analogy for Dr. Golemnik's second effect. It's more like a quarter-Natural Fury. It does damage to the opponent (not their creatures) equal to Golem's attack bonus (not its total attack). So if Golem (2/7 start) is next to Orc Chieftain (+2), has killed 3 enemies (+3), and was buffed once by Upgrade (+2), it will do 5 damage (+3 and +2). Also Golem isn't destroyed =)
* I'm surprised you're the first one to get confused on Steel Without Soul, to be honest! It's very complicated on paper, but easier to understand in play. Basically, when you play SWS, the "Immitation Golems" come into play and they look like Golems to your opponent and they act like Golems (e.g. they are healed by Golem Mechanic). Once the opponent can know that it is not the real Golem (e.g. the real Golem died and respawned), it becomes an "Immitation Golem - Revealed" and your opponent can see this as an interface convenience, but it also stops earning further bonuses from other Golem cards. There might be easier, cleaner ways to do this, but the point is that not only are you gaining two additional creatures on the board that depend on a strong Golem to be effective, but you're also temporarily "hiding" Golem from your opponent if he tries to life-rush it.
* The extreme conditionality of 2 was designed to allow the change of Golem to 2/7. It now (eventually) wins every matchup against mana-gainers if you're willing to commit to this Special 2 creature, and wins fairly quickly if you're also willing to commit a sweep. When an opponent goes first, they can't simply plop their Air 5 down in the 2/7 void slot and laugh at you. But I didn't want to make the card OP in other cases.
At a higher level, the really interesting question becomes "what is Golem's value that we must subtract from the cards"? In the class' current form, it's judged to be fairly small (compare Guardian Statue to Timeblazer or Dark Sculptor to Wrath of God... but then again compare Golem's Justice to Chaotic Wave and it looks bigger), but the early value of an extra 3/10 that can respawn to rush is huge, so I believe the class started to suffer when the -10 life cost was needed to compensate for it. Starting with a 2/7 Golem and having it get huge throughout the course of the game based on the class' own cards makes the "total value" of Golem really hard to figure out, but I think it also produces a much gentler power curve that where the cards can be valuable mostly because of the bonuses they are giving to Golem.
... OK, fair enough. My instinct is that this is because they are not overall balance problems, per se - they are more subtle design problems that sometimes deprive games of interesting decisions and exacerbate the value of getting lucky or unlucky in the draw. Some people have also said the current Golem class is not fun - I think it IS fun, but can be even better by creating that "endgame dream" of a huge, juggernaut of a Golem. This is not the kind of stuff that initially comes out during testing, but only through lots of play and consensus between high-level players.
The v1.32 (I think?) change that I proposed (when Golem's winrate was too high) to reduce the extreme synergy with global destruction by banning the Ice Golem + Armageddon and Ice Golem + Stone Rain combos for Golem Masters only were implemented into the game and I believe the class' winrates did balance out more after that - so it lends a little credence to the idea that Golem has this problem of draw-dependent strategies and counters. So to some extent, this has been noticed and addressed in the past, but the widespread dislike toward the class means that it probably didn't go far enough. *5 5/20 (ratio:11.7) between Ice Golem and T. Engine... lol i guess its a fine ratio after all, mathemagics arent always perfect.
*TBH it was 4am and i was struggling to be coherent xaxaxa
*SWS seems ok, but yeah, needs a bit simplification for card text sake
*You probably mean W5, but yeah, a card that only works in the early game? that becomes a dead card in late game? im not convinced of its utility.
*Bees are 17.6 ratio, but they are extremely prone to sweeps, like Spiders and they have the highest ratio for the Forest creatures, so as long as Golem creatures dont exceed that ratio it could be considered within balance range, which all of them already are... so the only thing left is trying to imagine practical situations to see the weakness or power of the abilities. Wavelength | 2014-11-18 21:44:01 |
*You probably mean W5, but yeah, a card that only works in the early game? that becomes a dead card in late game? im not convinced of its utility. Yep, I meant W5... changed it to the actual name for clarity. Thanks! (And see, even I can make mistakes XP ) Golem Mechanic's strongest utility would indeed be in those first few turns. Later on, it would be a way, if you can play it a turn or two in advance, to save Golem for an extra turn or so, delaying the squeeze on your life points (we've all been there with the class) or giving it the opportunity to win its slot (putting pressure on the board and permanently gaining an extra attack point). I can agree that these benefits are extremely situational and sometimes worthless in most endgames, but I don't think changing the stats would really do much there either. Can the effect be changed to make it more evenly useful throughout the game, while retaining a sufficient level of support against early mana gainers?
It seems like these problems would have been caught in testing pretty easily.
Oh really? Then we would not have goblin heroes with 3/17 (!!!) stats in the game till latest addon
this stuff is anything BUT easy if you ask me... even with 3/17 goblin heroes jumping around early on, i find myself actually admiring the balance level they have accomplished at the time of expansion release dates. i suspect it has something to do with the equally impressive feat of the archmage's AI - perhaps they test new classes by pitting multiple archmages against other for very large amounts of duels and analyzing result data..?
Modified by filip on 2014-11-18 22:27:18 FORESTRY | 2014-11-18 22:30:28 |
... Yep, I meant W5... changed it to the actual name for clarity. Thanks! (And see, even I can make mistakes XP )
Golem Mechanic's strongest utility would indeed be in those first few turns. Later on, it would be a way, if you can play it a turn or two in advance, to save Golem for an extra turn or so, delaying the squeeze on your life points (we've all been there with the class) or giving it the opportunity to win its slot (putting pressure on the board and permanently gaining an extra attack point).
I can agree that these benefits are extremely situational and sometimes worthless in most endgames, but I don't think changing the stats would really do much there either. Can the effect be changed to make it more evenly useful throughout the game, while retaining a sufficient level of support against early mana gainers?
There is a generalized problem in early turns of "dead slots" in which things can "nest" under them... turn 1 A5??? Place an E5 under it, and now its impossible to kill unless you do W8 (Because if you use Bargul it still has 9 life, and you used your air for A5...)
2/7 is as good at killing a generator as E1... so the problem is NOT the golem's sustenance, is its early kill potential... if the GolemMeister has F6 or F2 its not such a huge burden, but what if he only has A8 as his early CC??????? What if its A8 and the opponent nests W5?????
Therefore, Golem needs some kind of damage output to counter nesting generators... something like a Crazy Squirrel... perhaps a mix between rescue operation and squirrel....
*2 Throw Golem Core... Deal 15 damage to creature opposite of Golem; Golem takes 5-7 damage.
This move could also counter typical Cloud plays that violate the class early on... think of W5 into A9 rush.
Hps on Golem are not the answer for this scenario. HeadphonesGirl | 2014-11-18 23:54:02 |
i suspect it has something to do with the equally impressive feat of the archmage's AI - perhaps they test new classes by pitting multiple archmages against other for very large amounts of duels and analyzing result data..?
I forget whether it was Cooler or Estarh, but one of them has confirmed that they do this. RedRook | 2014-11-26 16:15:54 |
I know this might not mean much coming from a level 11 player with only 5 registered games with the Golem Master class, but I'm here anyway! I have always had an interest in creating new cards & class suggestions for Spectromancer. Since Golem is not exactly my cup of tea as a class, this rework, this "Golem Initiative" has caught my attention. Wave, you have done a capital job of reworking the Golem class! Hat's off to you! Your ideas completely reshape the class & introduce some very interesting & unique ideas. Well done! & thank you to all of those who have contributed here. I want to start off by saying, just because a group of players dislikes a certain class is no reason to completely scrap it or perform a major overhaul on the class (I think we all agree here) - if you really, really dislike a class, just don't play with it. There will always be classes that some players dislike playing with for several reasons. But with this the Golem class it seems it is more than just major dislike - the prevailing opinion is that the class is poorly designed on the whole & is not befitting to the strategy game that is Spectromancer. & it just so happens that I agree with this (but I'm also a little biased towards the class to begin with). So I am all in favour of a class rework in this case! I have drafted my own rework of the Golem Master class below. While I believe that Wavelength's version is totally awesome, I think it may be too extreme - it may leave those players whom the Golem class is one of their favourite classes feeling disappointed. So my version of a rework is a little more tame & relaxed than Wave's rework. Just a different approach. Red's Rough Golem Rework (stats & abilities may need adjustment):Golem ("Cost" 3) (Picture of current Golem) special Creature - 3/10 Same as current, no change. - Tempered Resolve (Picture G1) Cost 1 Deals 3 damage to target opponent creature, if the creature is killed by this spell permanently increase by 1 the attack & maximum life amount of the caster's Golem. Golem Guardian (Picture of G2) Cost 2 3/13 While in play Golem Guardian decreases by 1 all damage dealt to the owner's Golem. Golem's Courage (Picture of G3) Cost: 3 Permanently increases by 2 the maximum life amount of the caster's Golem & heals the Golem & its neighbours 3 life. Army Upgrade (Picture of G4) Cost 4 Same as current, no change. Golem Guide (Picture of G7) Cost 5 6/28 When summoned Golem Guide swaps positions with the owner's Golem & heals the Golem 3 life. Dark Sculptor (Picture of G6) Cost 6 Same as current, no change. Golem Instructor (Picture of G5) Cost 7 5/34 When summoned Golem Instructor permanently increases by 1 the attack of the owner's Golem; each turn Golem Instructor heals 3 life to the owner's Golem & to the owner. Master Craftsman (Picture of G8) Cost 8 Same a current, no change. -- Like I said, this is a rough rework & the stats & abilities may not be ideally balanced. But I hope it's a bit of an improvement on the current class. Just wanted to get some extra ideas out there. Keep the "Golem Initiative" alive! Modified by RedRook on 2014-11-26 16:30:11 Xanatos | 2014-12-19 22:06:41 |
I think it would be worthwhile to consider changing the auto-revive timing of the Golem so that it is re-summoned _after_ the combat round like the Bunny.
Also instead of Attack and/or HP bonuses why not consider giving the Golem a damage reduction ability like Mechanics Steel Golem - that could increase for every critter it kills.
--- Xanatos, aka CrashAndBurn.
CyberneticPony | 2014-12-19 23:38:13 |
I think it would be worthwhile to consider changing the auto-revive timing of the Golem so that it is re-summoned _after_ the combat round like the Bunny.
Also instead of Attack and/or HP bonuses why not consider giving the Golem a damage reduction ability like Mechanics Steel Golem - that could increase for every critter it kills.
--- Xanatos, aka CrashAndBurn. Can't do that as Golem MUST be in play, unlike Magic Rabbit.
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