Sinist | 2015-08-26 11:02:31 |
Style - "Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law."1. Squire 4/16 - when knight skips turns, instantly attacks opposite slot 2. Archer 4/18 - when knight skips turns, deals 6 damage to enemy creature with lowest hp 3. Spearman 6/23 - when knight skips turns, attacks this turn both opposite slot and opponent directly 4. Battlemage 5/26 - when knight skips turns, blocks opponent highest power for 1 turn and decreases it by 1 5. Inspiration - permanently doubles attack of target creature and its neighbours. Knight skips next turn 6. Charge - summons in target and neighbouring slots cavaliers 4/25 who attack after summoning and lose 4 hp every turn untill they kill creature. Knight skips next turn 7. Holy defender 4/44 - when knight skips turns, heals to him 4 hp and permanently increases attack by 3 8. Priest 6/40 - gives additional action (which can be used only for skipping). When enters the game, permanently increases damage dealt by friendly creatures by 1 Modified by Sinist on 2015-09-11 00:12:55 Wavelength | 2015-08-27 06:32:01 |
Very interesting concept, the way you are playing with the idea of the turn being a valuable resource in Spectromancer. In practice, I think what will happen is that the Knight will try to load the board with multiple Knight creatures (meaning the low end of the class will be used more than the high end) so that skipping their turn is valuable. If they ever do get to that point (and it's a big if because global clears will mostly counter this class), then the Knight will start skipping some turns, and playing very high cost Elemental creatures with their other turns (since they will have more mana than turns to spend it). It would actually be an interesting cycle. It would also be pretty draw-dependent, although I'm not sure whether it would be a "healthy" level of draw dependence (like Goblin) or an unhealthy one (something even worse than the original Golem class). I would really love to hear what everyone thinks about the Knight's expected flow of play, because it is an extremely interesting thought puzzle. Some of the effects are ambiguous so I will do my best to guess what you mean by them. Here's what I think of the individual cards: 1) For a class that's already draw-reliant and a card that requires an active decision to deliver its effect, I would try to make the cheapest card more generalizably usable. Change stats to 4/15 so it can live longer, and I think it's a better card. 2) The interesting question here is - is it fundamentally better to snipe the lowest-HP creature than a "random" (based on something else like location) creature? It probably is better, due to slot break potential. So I think it's balanced, and the effect is neat. 3) The potential to deal 18 damage to the opponent in a turn against an empty slot (assumption based on your wording) - 2x6 damage for the skipped turn plus the normal attack - could get abusive. Stipulate that the "opposite slot" will only be attacked if there's a creature in it, add 1 HP or maybe 2 HP, and it looks good. Plus, this way it's more differentiated from Squire. 4) I assume that "blocks" means that your opponent gets mana in that house but cannot use any cards from that house for a turn? This card is too weak - you are requiring the Knight to give up his turn (not play ANY cards) in return for not letting the opponent play a FEW of her cards. Yes, there might be other Knight creatures on the board to make it a better trade, but at cost 4 (and making it impossible to have the 3) they will either be very expensive or relatively weak. I do like the idea a lot overall but it needs to provide more creature value. I would recommend 5/27 and dropping the mana gain aspect (which is "hidden power" that won't feel great to use). 5) This one is weird - why is it in this class when its effect is so incredibly different from everything else? Also, is it a single target opponent's creature, or the creature opposing the creature that's taking the damage? What if there is no opposing creature? The card is approximately balanced (it's a little weak - compare Poisonous Cloud), but the dissonance from the class' theme is my bigger problem with it. 6) Way too strong, and also somewhat off-theme, since it has nothing to do with skipping turns or interacting with your other Knights. But you probably don't agree about it being too strong because of the life loss, so let me lay it out for you. There are two times you will play this card: as a life rush (where it will do 18 damage, often direct damage, immediately, and more in the coming turns, which is insane), or as board presence with a bonus. Let's look at the second case and compare it to Spectral Assassin - Spectral Assassin is a 6/22 with 12 bonus damage. Charge is a 6/30 assuming it's played across from a creature it can kill (it won't lose any more HP) with 12 bonus damage (two immediate attacks of 6 damage to either creatures or a player). Then you're getting those two other creatures for at least a couple turns, even if they don't kill anything, meaning you can safely assume at least 36 total bonus damage. Too good! You can also compare to Goblin Raiders, which might last a bit longer, but only have 4 attack and don't get to attack right away. I'm not sure what the best solution is... maybe three 5/26 creatures or two 6/35 creatures, and have them lose 5 HP at the end of each of your turns UNLESS they kill a creature that turn OR you skip your turn. 7) Very interesting "signature" card; I think it's a little overpowered (compare to Hypnotyst, which doesn't require additional Knight creatures to be good but also doesn't give you bonus effects every turn). Actually, this could be good to move to your 8-slot, because... 8) You of all people should know by now that Special 8's should never be designed in a way so that they have no effect if immediately Tornado'ed, and should always be designed in a way so that they provide utility beyond their own creature value (attack and life). This kind of card belongs much lower down in the class, maybe as a Knight 5 (3/32, +4 HP and permanent +2 attack for skipped turn). So overall I think there are some individual balance problems, possibly some classwide balance problems, and a couple cards that need to be brought closer to the theme; HOWEVER it's also the coolest general idea for a class I have seen in a long time and I think with some minor modifications it would be an awesome class suggestion. This review based on the original version of the class:1. Squire 5/11 - when knight skips turns, instantly attacks opposite slot 2. Archer 4/18 - when knight skips turns, deals 6 damage to enemy creature with lowest hp 3. Spearman 6/20 - when knight skips turns, attacks both opposite slot and opponent directly 4. Battlemage 3/24 - when knight skips turns, blocks opponent highest poweer for 1 turn and gives 1 mana of the same element 5. Inspiration - redirects all damage dealt to friendly creatures this turn to opposing creature. Increases elemental powers by 1 6. Charge - summons in target and neighbouring slots cavaliers 6/30 who attack after summoning and lose 8 hp every turn untill kill creature 7. Priest 5/40 - gives additionala ction (which can be used only for skipping) and gives 1 special power every turn 8. Paladin 4/50 - when knight skips turns, heals to him 6 hp and permanently increases attack by 3 Sinist | 2015-08-29 00:37:08 |
Very good review, Wave, as usually 1-2. Agree here completely 3. But spearman will not attack instantly, so max damage is 12... 4. You got it right. Not sure if 5/27 stats wont be too much for 4th level; and this card may significantly disrupt enemy plans... 5-6. Ok, I guess these cards need rework though I wanted to avoid class mechanics in spells (because spells gives less board presence than creature which makes skipping turns after casting them more dangerous) 8. Completely forgot to add 2nd effect (though your forgot golem 8 and forest 8)
Reworked
Modified by Sinist on 2015-08-29 00:46:47 Wavelength | 2015-08-29 01:20:42 |
3. But spearman will not attack instantly, so max damage is 12... 4. You got it right. Not sure if 5/27 stats wont be too much for 4th level; and this card may significantly disrupt enemy plans... 8. Completely forgot to add 2nd effect (though your forgot golem 8 and forest 8)
Nice job on the rework. Thoughts: '3: So to understand it better, if you skip your turn, the only thing it gets besides its "normal" attack is dealing direct damage equal to its attack to your opponent? (And if there is no opposite slot, it will deal damage to the opponent a total of twice that turn?) I think this is a bit underpowered (compare Knight 1 which is nearly as good) since it requires a turn skip to be more than a 6/20 body - would recommend 6/23. 4: It's really hard to tell, I'll admit. But I think if you compare Anceint Horror (requires bottling mana instead of skipping turns), you might agree that 5/26 will not be too powerful. 5: I like the rework; it fits much better into your theme. I think it's a little overpowered. How will it work for Elementals? 6: I love the rework. Smart move to force a skip next turn - it reduces the dependence on global clears to play correctly. 7 and 8: Look really good now, well done.
Sinist | 2015-08-29 12:39:54 |
5. Doubles growth of their attack. Compensated by forced turn skipping
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-30 19:15:15 |
Style - "Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law."
1. Squire 4/16 - when knight skips turns, instantly attacks opposite slot 2. Archer 4/18 - when knight skips turns, deals 6 damage to enemy creature with lowest hp 3. Spearman 6/23 - when knight skips turns, attacks this turn both opposite slot and opponent directly 4. Battlemage 5/26 - when knight skips turns, blocks opponent highest power for 1 turn 5. Inspiration - permanently doubles attack of target creature and its neighbours. Knight skips next turn 6. Charge - summons in target and neighbouring slots cavaliers 5/25 who attack after summoning and lose 4 hp every turn untill they kill creature. Knight skips next turn 7. Paladin 4/44 - when knight skips turns, heals to him 6 hp and permanently increases attack by 3 8. Priest 6/40 - gives additional action (which can be used only for skipping). When enters the game, permanently increases damage dealt by friendly creatures by 1 (Version being reviewed) Just from a general standpoint, this is my favourite of your classes, it's use of the skip turn button into a strategic tool is a great mechanic, but your execution of the mechanics into a class is really great too. Making the spells force skips adds to the great way it interacts. I'd really love it if this were in the game. In terms of balance; 1. This card is well balanced for a 1. I like cards that work as decent bodies in their own right. 2. It gives an A3-like effect for a skip with an ok body. I like it. I think it needs a slight health tweak to maybe 20, since its effect is more inconsequential than most 2 costers (this class has to manage skips as a resource as well as the class mana). 3. Feels a bit similar to 1; but since it has penetration power and good stats it's a decent card. 4. Feels really weak; not using a card for a turn (blocking your card) to block a single house that you do not even get to select (20% of the opponent's cards) would really be a niche use. I think as well as blocking the house, it should maybe disrupt the mana of that house too (like lower its mana by 2), that way you can stop a really big threat for more than just one turn to justify the skip. 5. I accept the elemental errata as I think that's a fine way of stopping them being ridiculous. This is really dangerous with Lightning Cloud; you should make this a banned combo specifically. With Hydra it's somewhat ok due to the forced turn skip, the later timing of Hydra, and the +3 sweeping essentially making it feel like a double hydra; which is a combo that can be seen coming way in advance, and removal/stunning/mindstealer/aggression can deal with this. 6. 15 damage on a potentially clear board? This is way too strong; even with the skipped turn, just compare this to Spectral Assassin; I understand it's 1 mana more, but you're getting so much bang for your buck here. It's not as if this is easy to block; they need Stone Rain or they're going to be taking way too much damage off one play. 7. A skip-turn battlecruiser. I like this card quite a bit; it feels like a supercharged Wolverine; it's also a really fat wall even without skipping (although using this card as a wall will likely be a niche strat!) 8. A Minotaur buff and a skip engine in one? This is actually well designed because it is a great support for all the other cards in the class! Overall, this is one of the best ideas I've seen in this subforum, well done!
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-30 19:18:36 Sinist | 2015-08-31 11:26:57 |
Thank you for review 2. Imho you underestimate power of clearing board from wounded ones quickly 4. Yet shaman with similiar abilities costs more and is much weaker... Granted, he does his dirty job every turn, but still. I will think over this matter 5. Maybe banned, maybe not, since 20 hp is not that hard to deal with 6. Assasin costs more and what is more importabntly, doesnt make his owner skip turn. Think of this as improved goblin 6
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 12:10:08 |
Thank you for review 2. Imho you underestimate power of clearing board from wounded ones quickly 4. Yet shaman with similiar abilities costs more and is much weaker... Granted, he does his dirty job every turn, but still. I will think over this matter 5. Maybe banned, maybe not, since 20 hp is not that hard to deal with 6. Assasin costs more and what is more importabntly, doesnt make his owner skip turn. Think of this as improved goblin 6
2. I do not underestimate its power, but I understand you need to compenstate for turn skipping (your effects will always occur on a turn delay at the very least), and if something just dies before that can happen it's not great, hence the slight recommended hp buff.
4. Shaman does his job every turn AND he stacks. Your ability does not stack in its current form. With my proposed change, it may push back less mana than shaman, but you will know what house is being hit which is a big deal.
5. Anything over 16 HP is generally trickier to deal with, and from experience high splash will end games or force considerable expenditure of resources. I basically think this combo is too efficient.
6. Goblin 6 does not have haste. I think you are underestimating haste. Sinist | 2015-08-31 13:14:14 |
2. Dont also forget good stats. Archer is almost mini-basilisk
4. And yet shaman is way weaker. Maybe -1 mana could be enough
5. Not really, just bargul + chain lightning. Or stone rain (very mana efficient since this combo takes a lot of mana and turns)
6. Actually it does if combined with water 9)
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 13:22:53 |
2. Dont also forget good stats. Archer is almost mini-basilisk
4. And yet shaman is way weaker. Maybe -1 mana could be enough
5. Not really, just bargul + chain lightning. Or stone rain (very mana efficient since this combo takes a lot of mana and turns)
6. Actually it does if combined with water 9) 2. Don't think it's good stats, think it's average stats for a 2. Hence the +2 HP I'd personally add.
4. Maybe, but it does need a little something more.
5. You are assuming they have these cards; which is not a guarantee. This combo would be pretty game ending in the situation they do not have these cards. Not only that, but it's also affecting its neighbours; your combo only deals with the lightning cloud. The neighbours will likely be hitting like trucks too.
6. No, it has partial haste that's not necessarily guaranteed, and that's a two card combo. You have full haste off one card. Plus, that's 9W (water is high value for a basic element) + 6S sunk in, whereas your card is just 6S + 1 turn.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-31 13:24:45 Sinist | 2015-08-31 13:40:08 |
2. Summon 2-3 archers and you will be able to destroy enemy creature almost every skipped turn. Good even in lategame unlike most level2 cards
4. Imho no
5. Or tornado. Or inferno. Or armageddon. Or poison cloud/other mass spell+finishing off. Knight wont be able to use earth 2 anyway. Of course sometime you have nothing to kill cloud. But then cloud + holy 1/earth 2/fire 5 will spell death to you as well
6. And loss of hp
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 13:45:27 |
2. Summon 2-3 archers and you will be able to destroy enemy creature almost every skipped turn. Good even in lategame unlike most level2 cards
4. Imho no
5. Or tornado. Or inferno. Or armageddon. Or poison cloud/other mass spell+finishing off. Knight wont be able to use earth 2 anyway. Of course sometime you have nothing to kill cloud. But then cloud + holy 1/earth 2/fire 5 will spell death to you as well
6. And loss of hp 2. How do you get 3 archers out against a skilled player? You still have to skip the turn before anything happens. That's 4 turns to setup. 4. Imho yes. 5. All of those solutions are expensive, coming at later timings often, and they don't deal with the neighbours in most cases (Arma probably could). What if a neighbour is Orc Chieftain? That's hell. 6. Loss of HP is irrelevant; you're dealing a truckton of damage, even if you're sacrificing board control for it LATER, that's still a massively favourable trade. Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-31 13:48:28 Sinist | 2015-08-31 14:03:38 |
2. the same way you can get three holy 1/mech 2/etc against skilled player
5. More expensive than cloud + some neighbour+inspiration+skipped turn? Arma could but rain could not? Come on
6. Then cult 4 and time 4 are highly OP, too
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 14:36:10 |
2. the same way you can get three holy 1/mech 2/etc against skilled player
5. More expensive than cloud + some neighbour+inspiration+skipped turn? Arma could but rain could not? Come on
6. Then cult 4 and time 4 are highly OP, too 2. Non-sequitur. Your setup requires 4 turns to execute rather than the 3 for those. In the buildup, holies and mech 2 have effects, your cards do not.
5. Both arma and stone rain can, but if you don't draw them, you're screwed.
6. Time 4 is in a class that struggles to get board presence (a weakness I discovered only after Wavelength told me it, I thought this was OP when I was newer). Cult 4 is pretty strong, but it's not a one card combo again, it requires other cards to be played before it makes its presence known. You are making THREE bodies with haste that are relatively tanky and have decent damage output. Compare to Forest Spider. I'm not saying it shouldn't be stronger than Forest Spider, but this is many, many tiers higher.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-31 14:39:39 Sinist | 2015-08-31 14:53:03 |
2. Even two archers will often be enough. I can summon 3 saboteurs, monks, peacekeepers and many other things, too 5. Screwed? Not sure at all. Besides, sorcery 5 creates similiarly terrifying combination 6. Time 6 and time 8 are excellent board control instruments, time 5 gives both board and mana control and time 2 has great stats together with imba abiolity, dont see this as a big weakness (since many elemental cards give you board control, too). Time is very OP class. As for spider, it is much cheaper than my card. Raiders are actually cheaper too + no hp loss, so it is kinda compensated Modified by Sinist on 2015-08-31 14:53:53 CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 15:48:21 |
2. Even two archers will often be enough. I can summon 3 saboteurs, monks, peacekeepers and many other things, too
5. Screwed? Not sure at all. Besides, sorcery 5 creates similiarly terrifying combination
6. Time 6 and time 8 are excellent board control instruments, time 5 gives both board and mana control and time 2 has great stats together with imba abiolity, dont see this as a big weakness (since many elemental cards give you board control, too). Time is very OP class. As for spider, it is much cheaper than my card. Raiders are actually cheaper too + no hp loss, so it is kinda compensated 2. I know it'll often be enough, but I still think it should have +2 HP to compensate.
5. Sorcery 5 does it for one turn, this is permenant.
6. Spiders cost 7, your card costs about 10 (based on how I value specials) + 1 turn. That doesn't justify a total of 7 extra attack, haste, and way, way more health (even if it's ticking).
About time: They're often weaker than their respective counterparts and if you play Time 5 or higher cards you'll be getting off less time 4s anyway. (Time Dragon is an exception but it's pretty expensive)
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-31 15:50:44 Sinist | 2015-08-31 15:56:49 |
5. And gives 2nd life to cloud, orc, elementals, etc
6. I am still inclined to my (and Wave) opinion on this matter
P.S. You must be joking, most time cards are the best on their levels because of abilities and more than decent stats
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 16:03:34 |
5. And gives 2nd life to cloud, orc, elementals, etc
6. I am still inclined to my (and Wave) opinion on this matter
P.S. You must be joking, most time cards are the best on their levels because of abilities and more than decent stats 5. It's still impermenant. Permenant buff on splashers is usually devestating. S5 needs a long setup to be used on elementals; a rushed lightning cloud + this can potentially come out by turn 4.
6. That's fine, it's just wrong. About time: I meant stats wise. They are actually usually not very good, compare to others in other classes. Timeblazer is a bit of an exception but I think Timeblazer is misvalued extremely.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-08-31 16:08:21 Sinist | 2015-08-31 16:42:54 |
5. How is it that different from cloud+orc? 2 attack points less but no turn skip. And in both cases you need either mass destruction or bargul+smth else or powerful damage spells to bury them
P.S. 2nd level statwise very good, 5th pretty good, 6th ridiculous (from 8 to 12 attack usually), 7th bad (which doesnt prevent it from being one of the best cards in the game) but 8th is almost on par with ancient giant
CyberneticPony | 2015-08-31 17:11:54 |
5. How is it that different from cloud+orc? 2 attack points less but no turn skip. And in both cases you need either mass destruction or bargul+smth else or powerful damage spells to bury them
P.S. 2nd level statwise very good, 5th pretty good, 6th ridiculous (from 8 to 12 attack usually), 7th bad (which doesnt prevent it from being one of the best cards in the game) but 8th is almost on par with ancient giant 5. Because you can get your permenance with that combo. Wavelength | 2015-09-01 07:22:10 |
For whatever it's worth, I've changed my opinion on 6 upon thinking about it more. Even if it is you (the Knight) that uses global destruction the turn beforehand, you are "guaranteed" 25 direct damage within the next two turns, even though afterwards you will be equal in horizontal presence. You do this by placing the three creatures unblocked (15 damage from immediate attacks), and then your opponent can usually only block one of these creatures next turn so you get another 10 damage. The forced skip is big, obviously, but it does little to stop the automatic 25 damage that gets through. So even though I said I thought it was balanced before, I now think that I'm wrong about that.
I think 2 is fine as it is. I have absolutely no idea whether 4 is overpowered, balanced, or underpowered (it was definitely underpowered at only 3 attack, but now that it provides fair creature value, its effect is hard to predict). My instinct is that 5 is a fair card, but it is another one that would be tough to tell without seeing it in action.
fuzzer | 2015-09-08 15:08:16 |
Style - "Our strong arms be our conscience, swords our law."
1. Squire 4/16 - when knight skips turns, instantly attacks opposite slot 2. Archer 4/18 - when knight skips turns, deals 6 damage to enemy creature with lowest hp 3. Spearman 6/23 - when knight skips turns, attacks this turn both opposite slot and opponent directly 4. Battlemage 5/26 - when knight skips turns, blocks opponent highest power for 1 turn and decreases it by 1 5. Inspiration - permanently doubles attack of target creature and its neighbours. Knight skips next turn 6. Charge - summons in target and neighbouring slots cavaliers 5/25 who attack after summoning and lose 4 hp every turn untill they kill creature. Knight skips next turn 7. Paladin 4/44 - when knight skips turns, heals to him 6 hp and permanently increases attack by 3 8. Priest 6/40 - gives additional action (which can be used only for skipping). When enters the game, permanently increases damage dealt by friendly creatures by 1 I too agree that this is an interesting and unique class. I very much like it's difference from the other classes and its uniqueness - the skip turn as an active mechanic. this class has many versatile cards and combinations and executing a good winning game with it will require, imo, a high level of game planning ability and also adaptability. I'm also working on a class with a unique mechanic right now (will publish it soon), and I think this is a very desirable thing and has a high contribute to spectromancer's versatility! about the cards: 1+2 - these cards will probably be the easiest way to get value from a turn skip and I love their ability in establishing board control. their stats seems fine to me. archer(2) is my preferred one of these two since it is more "pure" in seeking board control than squire(1) - which his ability can turn into damage to the opponent if he's unopposed. still, I really like both cards. very effective! 3 - at cost 3 it is still spamable, and an efficient way to get damage through. this card deserves its place in this class. 4 - highly tactical asset. can deny an elemental from entering or a nasty game-winning Armageddon. this card will be so much fun to win with!!! 5+6 - "force a skip" is very smart component, allowing you to design more powerful cards and keep a tactical maneuver depth. good idea! Inspiration(5) is the least creative card in a very creative class, but it is a fair card and probably powerful one ( I've created a monster!,,, hmmm,,, I've created three monsters!) :)Charge(6), imo, is overpowered. if I believe it's fair without haste (and I do) than it can't be ok with it... (15 more damage). It's actually more fun with haste so I recommend keeping it but lowering cavalier's attack or giving only random one of them haste. 7 - needs a name change for obvious reason. I can't anticipate how many turn-skips will be in an average game but for now its attack/+3 boost seems legit. its hp/+6 boost seems too high. with few skips I feel it'll live too long and have too high attack. I would recommend lowering its +6 hp boost to 4 or so. 8 - priest is a must! its ability is an engine for this class and it will be fun to use. I was thinking it could also have a "skip a turn" ability for Extra fun but maybe this is unnecessary. anyways its Minotaur's effect is good and also has a secondary combo with KNIGHT1 and KNIGHT3 ! Overall - very creative and easily one of the better class suggestions. I'd definitely would like to see it added to my random class picker! :)
Sinist | 2015-09-09 21:07:57 |
fuzzer, thanks! Reworked some cards, especially charge to have it fit balance better
CyberneticPony | 2015-09-10 21:46:20 |
fuzzer, thanks! Reworked some cards, especially charge to have it fit balance better
Charge is still way too strong. 15 damage off a haste is just crazy strong. It needs a 1 attack reduction. Modified by CyberneticPony on 2015-09-10 21:47:08 Sinist | 2015-09-11 00:12:42 |
... Charge is still way too strong. 15 damage off a haste is just crazy strong. It needs a 1 attack reduction.
I am afraid it will become too similiar to goblin 6, though
CyberneticPony | 2015-09-11 02:10:47 |
... I am afraid it will become too similiar to goblin 6, though
Don't be afraid of something like that. It happens all the time even in vanilla. Divine Justice looks similar in function to Cursed Fog!
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