MikeBnDe | 2016-01-12 13:54:14 |
In an attempt to revive the forum, i would be interested what your favorite classes are and why. Please just name two (otherwise it gets too confusing) and give the reason. Same for least favorite classes. Please note that i am not talking about what the strongest class is. I will start. Favorite: 1. Cult - I think this class has more potential than most people are aware of. Very versatile with different options and its possible to switch from one to another easily. You can opt or bluff for greater Bargul, play aggressive (cant count the number of times i suprised even better players with a well timed monument of rage), a well timed zealot play with Earth 6 can also be a nice finisher, going for profit with Blind Prophet etc.). That doesn't necessarily mean i am very successful playing it yet, will study this class in the future. 2. Control - i think it requires more skill to utilize its potential than a lot of other classes do. Very strong and fun to play. I am not sure CyberneticPony will agree (inside joke ;-) Worst: 1. Chaos - i seriously cannot believe that this class has not been banned. I mean we are talking about brilliant developers and game designers and then they do this shit. Too often the outcome between two equal players is simply decided by luck (does the catapult hit the right creatures or not, do you have two successive life losses of 5/6 life or just 1/2 due to chaos 2, what kind of mana steals chaos 5, etc.) What on earth were they thinking? If you want a game about luck, leave and roll a dice. 2. Golem - no good arguments here. I just dont like it. Too much hit and miss, i think. if opponent has A9 and you have no cards to handle it fast, A9 can be brutal, and there is not much you can do, for example (Ok a very good player will prepare for it maybe and can handle it, but still) So, what about you? Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-13 13:51:57 Sinist | 2016-01-12 19:39:58 |
Funny how you condemn chaos but not goblins...
My favorite would be cleric and druid. A lot of defence potential and strong board presence
I dislike death (way too game changing spells), time (jack of all trades is supposed to be only decent in every role...) and golem (very hot-and-cold)
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-12 21:34:45 |
Goblin would be place 3 on my list of least favorite classes. I dont like the luck factor there as well of course, but in my experience its not so crucial like in chaos
HeadphonesGirl | 2016-01-13 01:00:50 |
Illusion, mech, forest are my favorite 3
ShadowofMordor | 2016-01-13 11:06:54 |
Worst: Control and Time. No fun for gaming, as any game preventing other of doing something it's just not funny (but very strong game-wise). Time 4 still the most powerful card in the game to me. I'd add Golem as well as a third anyway as the game didn't need it. We had already the rabbit, moreover it's a no-brainer class ... Favourite class: Demonologist as first. I like the theme and also the strategy overall. Second I believe Chaos. I'd love random factor in games, so Mike ... as u can see it's just a matter of personal feelings :) mm75
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-13 13:46:38 |
Worst: Control and Time. No fun for gaming, as any game preventing other of doing something it's just not funny (but very strong game-wise). Time 4 still the most powerful card in the game to me. I'd add Golem as well as a third anyway as the game didn't need it. We had already the rabbit, moreover it's a no-brainer class ... Favourite class: Demonologist as first. I like the theme and also the strategy overall. Second I believe Chaos. I'd love random factor in games, so Mike ... as u can see it's just a matter of personal feelings :) mm75
So you like being in a situation where you clearly were the superior player skill-wise only to loose because, for example, the catapult hit the critical target two times in a row with lets say a probabilty of 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9? Hmmm.. Ok.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-13 13:57:29 MikeBnDe | 2016-01-13 13:48:50 |
Illusion, mech, forest are my favorite 3 And why? In the mood to elaborate?
Sinist | 2016-01-13 14:14:54 |
... So you like being in a situation where you clearly were the superior player skill-wise only to loose because, for example, the catapult hit the critical target two times in a row with lets say a probabilty of 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9? Hmmm.. Ok.
You forgot that mane game aspects depend on your draw - which is based on luck, too... Some draws are basically autowin/autolose
Modified by Sinist on 2016-01-13 14:15:03 CyberneticPony | 2016-01-13 14:24:47 |
2. Control - i think it requires more skill to utilize its potential than a lot of other classes do. Very strong and fun to play. I am not sure CyberneticPony will agree (inside joke ;-)
Psh. All the autowin hands! :-D
Here are my two favourites:
1. Holy - I like games where I have to play long and manoeuvre around my opponent's aggression, and this is what Holy excels at. I like the blowout play of Archangel too, although it's rare to get it off. 2. Illusion - I like punishing my opponent for making mistakes, and this class is one of the best at exploiting them. This class is a lot worse if the opponent doesn't make mistakes though. :-)
Here are the two I hate most:
1. Control - Raggle fraggle. This class would be fine if it wasn't for the absolutely no-fun autowin states that can arise from spamming cards like Weakness. I've lost to really bad players that got lucky off an all-in and I hate that. 2. Demon - I hate the amount of anti-breakthrough this class has. It makes it an absolute nightmare to play against since taking the board needs to be prioritised less, and the resulting asymmetric gameplay is fun if you're playing Demon, but it sucks for the other player.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2016-01-13 14:25:07 ShadowofMordor | 2016-01-13 15:40:27 |
... So you like being in a situation where you clearly were the superior player skill-wise only to loose because, for example, the catapult hit the critical target two times in a row with lets say a probabilty of 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9? Hmmm.. Ok.
Exactly :) Random is fun, that's also why we play Spectromancer and not chess where you don't have to rely on card draws for example ;-) mm75
PS: and just for statistics, it may happen once on X times tht your catapult works that way :) You already know it ;-) Modified by ShadowofMordor on 2016-01-13 15:42:21 MikeBnDe | 2016-01-13 18:19:56 |
... You forgot that mane game aspects depend on your draw - which is based on luck, too... Some draws are basically autowin/autolose
Of course i didn't forget that. But after the cards are dealt, there should not be additional luck elements, IMO. And btw, i think autowins happen rarely. Not sure, though. One would have to ask top 10 players how often it happens when they play against each other.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-13 18:22:24 MikeBnDe | 2016-01-13 18:28:59 |
... Exactly :) Random is fun, that's also why we play Spectromancer and not chess where you don't have to rely on card draws for example ;-) mm75
PS: and just for statistics, it may happen once on X times tht your catapult works that way :) You already know it ;-)
I dont think the answer of most players would be: 'I play Spectro because of these GREAT, EXCITING random elements like Chaos and Goblins have'. ;-) I think the main motivation of the real good players, who play the game regularily is the motivation to get better and better, gain more insights regarding the game mechanics, getting better at reading the opponts startegy etc. and its frustrating if that gets undermined by luck of the opponent. I know i am exaggerating somewhat and it doesn't happen that often, but as far as i am concerned it is totally unnecessary. But of course, more of a personal preference than a real argument.
HeadphonesGirl | 2016-01-13 18:35:24 |
The goal of having different classes is to give the option of playing many different ways. Chaos's approach relies on probability and playing around it. Catapult is a unique card, for example, because of the way it relies on the number of opposite cards: its usefulness is directly proportionate to them.
A small handful of games where the random factor causes a win when the odds were extremely low are acceptable because Spectro is a game with a certain amount of randomness built into it. The point of the class is to play in a way that maximizes your chance of a desirable outcome, just like spectromancer itself. Any argument you could make about chaos in this regard could apply to the whole game just as well.
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-13 19:13:49 |
The goal of having different classes is to give the option of playing many different ways. Chaos's approach relies on probability and playing around it. Catapult is a unique card, for example, because of the way it relies on the number of opposite cards: its usefulness is directly proportionate to them.
A small handful of games where the random factor causes a win when the odds were extremely low are acceptable because Spectro is a game with a certain amount of randomness built into it. The point of the class is to play in a way that maximizes your chance of a desirable outcome, just like spectromancer itself. Any argument you could make about chaos in this regard could apply to the whole game just as well. Sorry, but you generalize so much ('maximize your chance of a desirable outcome', 'the goal of having different classes is to give the option of playing many different ways') that your conclusions are trivially true, therefore missing substance. And i don't think something is acceptable just because it happens rarely or because other factors of randomness are built in the game itself as well (Draw). Think of a class with cards like : 'If you play this card, there is a 1/100 chance that the game ends immediately and you have won.' Is it statistically relevant? No, it happens rarely. Is it less worse because the game has other aspects of randomness in it? No. Is it any better because such a class gives you the option of playing in different ways than the other classes (playing that particular card as much as possible, therefore 'maximizing your chance of a desirable outcome' etc). No. Is that class badly designed? Yes. Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-13 19:24:50 srbhkshk | 2016-01-14 06:20:50 |
I actually like Chaos, but hate Goblins. :P
ShadowofMordor | 2016-01-14 08:56:18 |
... I dont think the answer of most players would be: 'I play Spectro because of these GREAT, EXCITING random elements like Chaos and Goblins have'. ;-) I think the main motivation of the real good players ...
You got another one liking Chaos in the meantime, better avoid thinking with others' minds :) :) :) Jokes apart, I simply believe everyone may have an opinion and any opinion should be considered and respected :) mm75
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-14 13:00:15 |
... You got another one liking Chaos in the meantime, better avoid thinking with others' minds :) :) :) Jokes apart, I simply believe everyone may have an opinion and any opinion should be considered and respected :) mm75
;-) In my defense i said 'I don't THINK'. Yes everyone is entitled to have an opinion. Some give good reasons for theirs, some don't ;-)
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-14 13:00:36 HeadphonesGirl | 2016-01-14 17:35:01 |
Think of a class with cards like : 'If you play this card, there is a 1/100 chance that the game ends immediately and you have won.'
The reason this card is bad isn't because it has an element of randomness but because it's useless 99% of the time and overpowered 1% of the time. The random chaos cards are good because they are always useful, but have to be planned around by the chaos player and the opponent. You have to play in such a way that you manipulate the probability of the card's result in your favor. Your hypothetical card doesn't give the opportunity to do that.
RedRook | 2016-01-14 23:51:47 |
My favourite class used to be Sorcerer, but I have not played it much since the nerf to Sorc 6. The power of the class can fluctuate depending on the draw - creature screw - but the spells of the class are fun to play & offer several different strategic pathways to take. I have come to grow fond of the Cleric class overtime. I never used to like it, but once I practiced with it enough & learned the tactics of the class, It has become one of my preferred class to play. I enjoy the way the class plays & the options it provides. My least favourite class is Goblins... I just don't like it. I have never liked it. The random element doesn't bother me so much, the class just doesn't seem to fit into Spectro in my opinion. I don't like the aesthetic theme or the strategic theme of the class. But that's all just personal feeling. Next comes Death & Vampires. I loathe playing against these two classes. The slow play and bluffing of Death just makes the class less fun to play against, & Vampires just suck... pun intended MikeBnDe | 2016-01-15 07:19:19 |
... The reason this card is bad isn't because it has an element of randomness but because it's useless 99% of the time and overpowered 1% of the time.
The random chaos cards are good because they are always useful, but have to be planned around by the chaos player and the opponent. You have to play in such a way that you manipulate the probability of the card's result in your favor. Your hypothetical card doesn't give the opportunity to do that.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-15 07:29:13 MikeBnDe | 2016-01-15 07:28:12 |
I was lazy with the example of the hypothetical card. Add some creature stats to that card so that it is solid in the 99% case. I
have been aware of the underlying concept of chaos for a long time of
course. Yes of course, you can sometimes bend the probability in your favor to a certain degree when you are a skilled player playing against chaos (with some cards like catapult, harder with other cards), but
the point is, even when you do clever, skilled moves to do so, there is
still a probability that you dont get the benefit for it and the
game outcome does not reflect the players skill gap and you loose simply
due to luck - so, from the opponents perspective, even when you
played wisely against chaos, after manipulating the odds, it basically
boils down to the hypothetical card and thats why i mentioned that card.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-15 07:28:51 Wavelength | 2016-01-15 13:17:36 |
#1: Time - The intelligent rush class, with dynamic cards that usually require setup and careful use, and a strong theme built around a resource unique to Spectromancer (the "turn"). All of its cards are interesting and potentially game-changing. Is Time slightly overpowered? Probably. But that doesn't stop the class from being really fun to use, okay to play against, and very interesting.
#2: Illusion - Fast, exciting, and much more versatile than it appears on the surface, Illusion is the best class for counterplaying (rather than simply stopping) your opponent's moves - think about its 1, 3, 4, and 6 for the best examples. I love counterplay and mindgames and what they bring to any strategic game. Very few people have bad things to say about Illusion's presence in the game.
#15: Death - I've started to think, recently, that Necromancer is more fun to play as than I used to think. However, it's still toxic to play against, and the long, often one-sided games that D5, D6, and D7 make for make some games more frustrating than they need to be, and double the length of our monthly tournaments.
#16: Golem - Can only play a single general strategy (blind rush), and far more dependent on a good draw than most other classes. Extremely vulnerable to screws. Too much of its power is locked up in a frustrating creature (Golem). In my opinion this is the one badly designed class in Spectro.
HeadphonesGirl | 2016-01-16 04:15:32 |
but the point is, even when you do clever, skilled moves to do so, there is still a probability that you dont get the benefit for it and the game outcome does not reflect the players skill gap and you loose simply due to luck - so, from the opponents perspective, even when you played wisely against chaos, after manipulating the odds, it basically boils down to the hypothetical card and thats why i mentioned that card.
It doesn't though, even if you give the card some stats. If the stats are high for its cost then the card is useful because it has high stats. If the stats are low for its cost it is bad because it has low stats. Its overall usefulness would be virtually unaffected by the 1% chance of it breaking the game. It would also be universally hated, much moreso than even something like time stop or the original version of drain souls, for randomly ending 1% of games for no reason. There is no chaos card that is equivalent to this at all. The reason I'm objecting is because your general argument appears to be that you dislike chaos because you think it's unfair, which I think is tantamount to claiming you don't deserve any losses you've had to anyone who has beaten you with the class, and I'll always object to anything like that. If you don't like the class because you simply prefer as little randomness as possible and it's just a preference, fine, whatever. But I don't understand why a game like spectromancer, that is so heavily based on randomness in the first place, would appeal to you at all in that case.
Wavelength | 2016-01-16 17:44:22 |
BTW - a quick opinion on in-game randomness since it's dominating this discussion - I feel that it's best when you can try to play around it (both before and after it happens).
Chaos 1 and Chaos 2 are examples of "bad randomness" because you cannot control their effects and no matter what you play before or afterwards, some rolls will always be better than others. A card like Chaos 3, Goblin 6, or Goblin 3 presents a much better example of "good randomness" because players can set up situations where more or fewer possible outcomes will work in their favor, and the timing of the play matters just as much as the RNG's temperment. Chaos 4 is a particularly interesting one because while it looks like a "bad randomness" card, the qualitative nature of survive/kill/slot-break means that the timing of the card can actually mitigate the RNG's randomness far more than it can on Ch1/Ch2.
Sinist | 2016-01-16 18:40:28 |
Imgo chaos 3 is the worst random card here. Just pray for it to hit right target... which is usually unlikely to happen... hit and miss... so hot and cold and so easily countered by placing even two cretaures to make chaosmaster think twice before relying on it... Ugh
Wavelength | 2016-01-17 01:29:31 |
Imgo chaos 3 is the worst random card here. Just pray for it to hit right target... which is usually unlikely to happen... hit and miss... so hot and cold and so easily countered by placing even two cretaures to make chaosmaster think twice before relying on it... Ugh The best uses of Chaos 3 are to use it when all of your opponent's creatures are high-value, when your opponent only has one creature, or as a bluff. Good play around Chaos 3 will only need it to hit the 'right target' once all other options have been exhausted. That's why I think Ch3 is a well designed card.
Sinist | 2016-01-17 08:53:09 |
... The best uses of Chaos 3 are to use it when all of your opponent's creatures are high-value, when your opponent only has one creature, or as a bluff.
All these situations are unlikely unless player vs chaos is noob. you cannot control its effect (opponent does), and no matter what you play
before or afterwards, some rolls will definitely be better than others Good play around chaos 2 needs only to summon earth 1/water 6, so it is well designed card)
Modified by Sinist on 2016-01-17 08:53:45 CyberneticPony | 2016-01-17 09:44:15 |
... All these situations are unlikely unless player vs chaos is noob. you cannot control its effect (opponent does), and no matter what you play before or afterwards, some rolls will definitely be better than others Good play around chaos 2 needs only to summon earth 1/water 6, so it is well designed card)
One of the powers of chaos is that if you're likely to lose, you can take a big risk that puts you ahead in the game.
I've had games where I predict a loss unless I exactly kill off a lightning cloud, and I'd use Chaos Bolt to create a chance to get back in the game where previously there was none. Many games have been won as a result of taking this kind of risk. Chaos Bolt is a great card for establishing comeback as well as punishing tall strategies.
Modified by CyberneticPony on 2016-01-17 09:44:29 Sinist | 2016-01-17 14:07:18 |
've had games where I predict a loss unless I exactly kill off a lightning cloud, and I'd use Chaos Bolt to create a chance to get back in the game where previously there was none.
Good example of bad design. Either pray for good roll or die. Very ho-and-cold hit-and-miss concept; the same problem as with the whole golem class
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-17 22:54:26 |
... There is no chaos card that is equivalent to this at all.
Incorrect. A lot of them are. Its just a little bit more hidden than with the hypothetical card. The only difference is a delay til the loss occurs.
Modified by MikeBnDe on 2016-01-17 22:57:10 MikeBnDe | 2016-01-17 22:55:53 |
... One of the powers of chaos is that if you're likely to lose, you can take a big risk that puts you ahead in the game.
I've had games where I predict a loss unless I exactly kill off a lightning cloud, and I'd use Chaos Bolt to create a chance to get back in the game where previously there was none. Many games have been won as a result of taking this kind of risk. Chaos Bolt is a great card for establishing comeback as well as punishing tall strategies.
Thank you CP. Do we really need to continue the discussion now whether the class is good designed or not?
MikeBnDe | 2016-01-17 23:04:41 |
Chaos 1 and Chaos 2 are examples of "bad randomness" because you cannot control their effects and no matter what you play before or afterwards, some rolls will always be better than others.
See statement above.
Wavelength | 2016-01-18 01:47:11 |
@Sinist: Sometimes I find it amazing that we're both highly ranked since we apparently think the exact opposite of each other about almost everything :) As an example of where I see the Chaos player being able to control the randomness of Ch3: Use a board clear first to wipe your opponent's creatures out. In doing so, you can threaten the first creature to come out with a 100% Doom Bolt. A good Chaos player will use this to their advantage and play a board clear at a time when they want their opponent's next move to be a chump creature.
@Mike: Given that you made this topic as "an attempt to revive the forum", you should be happy that the discussion is branching out in several directions!
If I had to put Chaos and Goblin on my list of favorite classes, I'd probably put Chaos about 10th, and Goblin about 5th. With the last patch Goblin's internal balance became much better, which I feel made the class itself much more interesting in play (instead of just in concept).
HeadphonesGirl | 2016-01-18 02:14:16 |
... Thank you CP. Do we really need to continue the discussion now whether the class is good designed or not?
This isn't unfair. The trade off is the times when your chaos card does not do what you want it to. When you get low results from chaotic wave, when your catapult hits the worst thing it could three turns in a row, etc. The point is that the results average out over time. Which, again, is exactly how the randomness works in spectromancer as a whole.
Sinist | 2016-01-18 08:42:33 |
Wavelength: and yet spell which costs 3 mana and turn is easily countered (unless you really want to rely on 50% or even lower chance - again, perfect example of bad design) by summonning simple elf healer or golem or something else. Thats assuming chaosmaster even managed to wipe out entire board at first. chaos 1 and chaos 2 at least give you stable advantage, they are not nearly as rabid in their hot-and-coldness
All these situations are unlikely unless player vs chaos is noob.
let's say that your opponent is NOT noob and plays in a way that avoids getting wrecked by your Ch3. let's say that you take advantage of that (using the knowledge that your opponent will NOT play A9 in a specific board) and play your cards in a way that gives you the edge (but would be extremely dangerous if your opponent could play A9 there) like responding with an E7 after a board clear spell for example. would you say that Ch3 was a useful card in this case or not?
note that the above scenario stands even if you never played Ch3 at all (or perhaps you didn't even have it in your available cards for the game)
Modified by filip on 2016-01-18 11:10:08 Sinist | 2016-01-18 11:16:42 |
By "specific board" you mean clear board+3 special mana. Such situation is unlikely to take place by the time opponent has mana for air 9. And even then at best it would give you 1 turn minor board advantage... Unless you are willing to risk everything of course. Sure, doom bolt is not useless. Sometimes even forest 1 is useful. But squirrel is much betetr designed
By "specific board" you mean clear board+3 special mana. no. in the example i had in mind: my opponent plays a board clear. i have E7 and i play it immediately. he/she has A9 in hand and thinks about playing it to counter the spider. i have at least 2 chaos mana Sinist | 2016-01-18 12:20:44 |
misspelled - "clean board. This only proves that you cannot rely on chaos 3 unless opponent has only one worthy creature. Which is, again, unlikely to happen
Modified by Sinist on 2016-01-18 12:21:29 srbhkshk | 2016-01-18 15:12:05 |
Well, are there any cards which you can *rely* on in all situations? (Not counting Dragon / Tornado)
Sinist | 2016-01-18 15:23:50 |
I already said that the main problem of chaos bolt lies in its design, not balance
srbhkshk | 2016-01-18 15:27:07 |
But the only problem you are pointing out is that you can't rely on the card.
Sinist | 2016-01-18 16:24:37 |
balance is bad because design is bad. It is designed as the most hit-and-miss card from the whole class, thats the problem
srbhkshk | 2016-01-18 16:45:34 |
All cards are hit and miss if you use them as hit and miss.
Sinist | 2016-01-18 16:54:57 |
No, only a couple of cards + golem class are that stupid
Wavelength | 2016-01-18 21:14:51 |
I think Filip gave a great example. Some of Vamp's cards at the very high end, and Time Stop, have similar bluff/distort value. Chaos 3 is a little less generalizably usable, but the distort value alone makes it a worthwhile card to have in the set (even if not in your hand). This kind of "control of chaos" is very good design in my mind!
Sinist | 2016-01-18 21:19:26 |
All standart attack creatures combinations usually involev water 4, fire 1, water 3, air 1, air 2, special creatures, etc - and even only one of those cards present distorts your chaos 3 greatly. No other spell in the game can be rendered next to useless (again, unless you are really fond of praying to Randomizer) so easily Oh well, lets just agree to disagree Modified by Sinist on 2016-01-18 21:31:50 Wavelength | 2016-01-19 17:43:02 |
All standart attack creatures combinations usually involev water 4, fire 1, water 3, air 1, air 2, special creatures, etc - and even only one of those cards present distorts your chaos 3 greatly. No other spell in the game can be rendered next to useless (again, unless you are really fond of praying to Randomizer) so easily
Oh well, lets just agree to disagree Just in case it wasn't clear - the power of Chaos 3 is not in reliably removing big creatures, but in the ability to (without even having to use Ch3) force your opponent to "waste" a turn playing a chump like Air 1. Your distortion forces them to act, whereas their distortion simply forces you to hold back a single card. I think that's pretty good!
Sinist | 2016-01-19 17:49:31 |
I believe you overestimate its distortion effect a lot
Favorite Classes: â 1 - Time. Best class in game and very interesting to play.
CyberneticPony | 2016-02-06 01:41:14 |
I believe you overestimate its distortion effect a lot I don't think he is overestimating it; many games have been won and lost on the presence of this card.
minhtuan | 2016-02-25 15:15:53 |
My favorite class are Sprit and Golem. Both are easy to understand and to play.
Cthulhu666 | 2016-03-07 00:11:17 |
I truly enjoy playing as Beastmaster because of the amazing flexibility you have. Vampire Lord is alos a really solid power. I loathe goblin chieftain. It is not only weak, but pretty boring to play.
Angryonion | 2017-10-27 05:46:38 |
Bit of a bump but I've been gone a couple years so it's new to me.
Top 3 1. Time- Clearly overpowered 2. Cleric- Great at responding to opponents 3. Chaos- Old favorite even though it gets worse with every expansion
Bottom 3 1. Golem- Hate so much. You can get a heal screw and damage screw without big specials to bail you out 2. Vamp- Draw losses vs high damage where you can't even play any special mana and vamp3 is worst card in game. 3. Cultist- Least useful special 8 if you have board control already. |