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I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way, but I think it was a pretty shady move of you guys to change the free class to illusion and then nerf it down, especially with these OP new classes coming out. I mean I see why you did it, your hoping that free players will notice that they are losing more to cards then skill and decide to upgrade. I feel like it could very very easily have the opposite effect though, if new players feel discouraged right off the bat in this way they're not going to want to continue. Granted, I don't feel like illusion is unwinnable or anything, but you're at a serious disadvantage to someone bringing beast/demo/sorc right off the bat. I did alot of testing with it in the beta, but taking one of the already worst classes and nerfing down even more after you convert it to the free one is kind of slap in the face to non paying fans, which whether you admit it or not still really helps this game thrive. All in all I would like to see you guys scrap the whole class incentive altogether, I think everyone would agree that the game would be tons better if every player could use every class and you guys could figure out some other way of incenting people to pay.
| Zannoland | 2010-03-03 04:07:33 |
illusion is not top tier, but it is a solid class. i don't agree with the changes to oracle, but i actually do think illusion 5 and 6 were a hair too good. sorry that you are no longer being handed the second most powerful class in the game, and instead have to use the second most difficult class to play in the game! do note that difficult to play is not the same as weak, illusion is actually quite strong. i think your problem is that you may find it difficult to play a class that takes aggression and skill to play instead of brainless turtling. if anything, illusion may now be tied with holy for second place, because the changes to faerie sage singlehandedly mitigate any other nerfs the class got.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-03 04:13:42 Really, because if you take a look at top rated players illusion was already far behind before these nerfs. And you may consider it quite strong but compared to the sorc/beast/control/holy/ ect.. it is at a clear disadvantage. Also, I have a paid account, I'm just bringing this up for constructive purposes. Do you not agree that if they could somehow find another way to get players to pay the game would be much more varied and fun? Maybe before you decide to be a dick right off the bat you could actually contribute to the post. What class would you put illusion in front of right now?
| Zannoland | 2010-03-03 06:15:00 |
Really, because if you take a look at top rated players illusion was already far behind before these nerfs. And you may consider it quite strong but compared to the sorc/beast/control/holy/ ect.. it is at a clear disadvantage. Also, I have a paid account, I'm just bringing this up for constructive purposes. Do you not agree that if they could somehow find another way to get players to pay the game would be much more varied and fun? Maybe before you decide to be a dick right off the bat you could actually contribute to the post. What class would you put illusion in front of right now? illusion's strength is it has no weak matchups. necro, mech, chaos, have enormous difficulty playing against control, and there are many cards in the elements which if in the hand of your opponent makes the matchup an absolute nightmare (phoenix vs death, acid rain vs chaos, are two good examples). elementals are by far the weakest against illusion more than any other class, which often puts you at an advantage against the class that makes the most use of elementals, holy. illusion vs control probably favors the control player, but not to the degree of the other matchups.
| wiggin | 2010-03-03 10:23:34 |
I agree fully with the OP. Illusion was the weakest class before, but it was fine really. Now it's underpowered. It sucks also for us paying members, who now effectively have one class less to play on a competitive level.
| Dominant | 2010-03-03 17:06:28 |
yeh its going into a totally wrong direction
btw. it got nerfed but also it got an boost remember that air 4 now heals max 10 life but back to the point
illusion is the worst class for new players you need good game knowlage to win with it against lvls 5+
and not mentioning that winnig with holy, control is hard like f also probobly a win with demon will be close to imposible
ps. i payd for the game like a mont or 2 ago and now i can play only illusion ? or pay 10$ wtf?!
if its true f this shit another higher (was going that way :P) lv will start looking for something beter then a unfair rippoff or back to chess its fair more comlicated and free
only the oppenings 30 % of the game sucks ass badly :)
| Falcorn | 2010-03-03 17:21:47 |
I agree that the air 4 nerf helped it out abit, but it also helped every other class wiith the same issues. I'm free and feel like I'm being screwed a bit, and I'm not that heavy into this game so to be honest I probably will quit playing soon. I just logged onto here to find out what was up with this illusion thing and to see how to get back to holy which I've played as since I started. I guess I can't though ha, stupid expansion. It wouldn't bother me if they switched us to a somewhat competative class, but from my little experience with it and from what people on these forums have said, it was already a not so good class that was made worse because they knew the free players would be using it. On top of that we have 3 new classes that are OP and can easily steamroll you ha, Idk this isn't my idea of fun, there's other games ha
| Cooler | 2010-03-03 17:22:48 |
ps. i payd for the game like a mont or 2 ago and now i can play only illusion ? or pay 10$ wtf?!
No, you can play all classes you had in both 1.03 and new 1.1 game versions. | Wavelength | 2010-03-03 17:49:39 |
I agree with everyone in this topic who said the nerfs to Illusion were both unnecessary and unwise. Yeah, it's nice that new players have a bigger incentive to buy the Full version, but will they appreciate the game enough to stick with it long enough to make the Full version worth it? After all, it's frustrating to feel that you lost in spite of playing a better game. It's not that Illusion games are unwinnable, but I'd go as far as to say that with the new nerfs, you can play the slightly better game as an Illusionist, and still lose against at least half of the other classes. This isn't something that would happen rarely, but fairly often. That's dangerous. Spectral Mage and Oracle were perfectly balanced in 1.03, in my opinion, and Hypnotyst was way underpowered (to the point of being nearly irrelevant). Now all three are underpowered (two slightly so and one very much so). What fun is that? I agree that the air 4 nerf helped it out abit, but it also helped every other class wiith the same issues.
The Faerie Sage nerf helped Illusion far more than the other classes. Illusion thrives on quick kills. Faerie Sage prevents quick kills. Illusion would rather have all healing be stricken from the game. Control, for example, would rather have EVERY non-special card be Faerie Sage! :) So this was a slight implicit nerf to Control, Holy, etc., and a slight implicit buff to Illusion, Chaos, etc. | Falcorn | 2010-03-03 18:44:01 |
Yes I agree with you, that was kind of my point, it was a slight buff to illusion but also to other classes that have it's same type of play style. I would go as far as to say that the only way an illusion player is going to be beating a sorc/beast/control ect player is if they play a flawless game and the other person is having a bad game. In general I just think it's dumb that any class should be at a large dissadvantage, especially just to make to the free players want to pay for the game. At least when a new player got on holy they felt like they had a legitimate chance to win against other players even if they brought the paid for classes, but now it feels like you're at a large dissadvantage purely for not wanting to pay. This kills mmos and I'm guessing will probably have a negative effect on your player base as well. Please find another way of charging people for this game.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-03 20:27:24 |
In case anyones reading this though, you can still play on the 1.03 version, download it on download.com. I just reinstalled it over my old and there's still a bunch of people on it. I guess I can enjoy it until they block it off, then that will probably be the end of this game for me.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-03 20:54:26 |
In general I just think it's dumb that any class should be at a large dissadvantage, especially just to make to the free players want to pay for the game. At least when a new player got on holy they felt like they had a legitimate chance to win against other players even if they brought the paid for classes, but now it feels like you're at a large dissadvantage purely for not wanting to pay.
In theory I agree with you. In practice, Illusion is not at a huge disadvantage, only a small but noticable one. Maybe for newbies the power gap is a little bigger. Hopefully they will stick with it long enough to get good enough where they can beat simple Beast and Sorc strategies. Ideally, if all classes were perfectly balanced, you'd be paying the $20 for variety and fun, not for an "edge" against other players. The current situation is not so bad... At least when a new player got on holy they felt like they had a legitimate chance to win against other players even if they brought the paid for classes, but now it feels like you're at a large dissadvantage purely for not wanting to pay.
...and it's CERTAINLY better than when Holy (boring class but second best in the game in 1.03) was the free class. Sometimes, if I played Chaos, Illusion, or Mechanician, I felt that *I* had no chance to win against Free Players! but now it feels like you're at a large dissadvantage purely for not wanting to pay. This kills mmos and I'm guessing will probably have a negative effect on your player base as well. Please find another way of charging people for this game. Actually, this works really well in MMO's; it's probably THE most successful model in most Korean-style MMO's. It's annoying when that happens in a tight strategy game like this, though. Still, it's not fair to call it a large disadvantage. Play the better game and you'll still win... usually. | Falcorn | 2010-03-03 21:09:42 |
Yeah I feel like that was the general idea, you would pay for variety not so that you can be better than other people, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of a balanced strategy game. And I could see where you were coming from with holy being a bit too strong, but you shouldn't force a large portion of your player base into a class with large disadvanteges which receives nerfing just because it's free. Also I woud just have to argue with that last point you made as well, it's ussually the vice of any free/pay if you want game. When you first get on and just started getting destroyed by a few ppl who had money to pay for the game, you're not going to want to continue. I feel like a better option is to charge people for extra content like extended 1 player mode, more options, special privilages, not charging them to be better at the game.
| Dominant | 2010-03-03 21:30:47 |
Guys dont get crazy about nerfing ilu as i did sey at the start there had been a boost with air 4, a major one in my opinion and i think illu is still balanced the thing is you need major skills to play it well 10lv+ skill at least nowdays it will probobly change cuz everybody will play illu now and the overall knowlege of the class will improve drasticly for me personaly: necro is the best (exept playing vs holy and as most players playd holy it was a bit underestimated) but i know one thing its boring as f second holy (also a bit boring) or control (for me most fun to play, a lot of tactics) and at 4 place illu! and it would be higher if i would have a beter knowlage of the game ( im still to lame to play it well at 100%) -so its a good class if your a master not a newbie so why the f you made it a free class?! chaos and mech for sure are weeker then illu for me i cant sey a lot about new clases but playing beta my opinions are: demonic kik ass motherfuckin class, as my style is as goes: 1. creature damage 2. bord control 3. player damage (week here but after wins in 1 and 2 its not importand as much) sorcerer: awesome aginst some clases week vs others but comone sorcers 4 5 7 and 8 are owesome so its a superb class too beast weekest of all new 3 classes and boring at the same time or maby i dont know how to play it? conclusion: illu is not a bad class but it's bad for newbies you need a lot of skills i lack them at lv 15 whith around 2 to 1 wins, so why you made it a free class? new classes exept beast are so f kik ass classes its like buy them or loose (maby ill change my mind after a while but for now i feel i know what im typing) ... No, you can play all classes you had in both 1.03 and new 1.1 game versions.
i get an error in second move of the first(or second player ? not shure) then I lose, in second game error again in second move and i win
after reinstalling it helped for a wile and then back again
then ppl started to msg me that i have to play illu so what should i do format ?! | Dominant | 2010-03-03 21:33:59 |
btw sorry for my english but i'm Polish and i'm a bit drunk :)
| Falcorn | 2010-03-03 21:39:33 |
I agree with you on some issues. Obviously I think that it sort of feels like buy the new classes or lose right now. I guess my rankings would go like this, control > holy > death (uck) > chaos > mech = illusion, with all 3 new classes being very high also, I feel that mech and illusion are both pretty lacking but after these recent nerfs I would give the nod to mech. And I agree with you that illusion is an even more demanding class to play than most, so why make it the newbie class? If I remember correctly from the stats, illusion was fairly dominant amonth low lv players but absolutly got destroyed with higher lv players due to weaknesses of the class. Idk I just figured the developers were a little bit above pulling such a shady move, nerfing the free class down to hell and all, making it by far the worst option they could get. It's going to make the game so much less fun to play when no one is left in the lobby to play because they gave up after getting wrecked repeatedly as illusion to all these new classes.
| Dominant | 2010-03-03 22:22:23 |
i think you overunderestimate illu
for me personaly i was afraid only playing vs necro or illu at high lvls (cuz everybody playd holy i did develope a good vs holy skill making it week against me) but maby i was afraid of illu cuz i laced skills vs it
let my explain my point:
When i was playing a high lv illu first thing i checked: whitch of three cards i had in y deck (first most important): wather 6, air 4, earth 4
air 4 was a great card to have especialy if you had earth 5 and could defend it for a while or throw earth 10 quickly and defend it (not mentioning combo of those) with air 4 its a illu almoust sure loose only tornado could back down the combo but its a player damaging element so illu was down anyways
i would even sey that illu is a bit strongr now when air 4 got a bit crappy
but its only a my opinion/guess i hope im not wrong
| Cooler | 2010-03-03 22:45:29 |
i get an error in second move of the first(or second player ? not shure) then I lose, in second game error again in second move and i win
after reinstalling it helped for a wile and then back again
You installed it over previously activated 1.03? I noticed one or two issues like this during last few hours, so really interested to find their reason. Please mail me to support@spectromancer.com
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-05 03:28:40 |
Richard Garfield's name is on this game, right? I think he's a respectable guy! Maybe we (or the developers?) could ask him what he thinks about the Illusion change. | Falcorn | 2010-03-05 16:01:13 |
Idk I feel like there's no hope of the developers changing it which kind of bums me out. My parents wont let me use their card to buy shit online so I can't purchase this and the new expansion just isn't fun for me, which kind of sucks because I really like this game, I got one account to 12 and another sits around 7. Like I said once they block off version 1.03 I'll probably be done. I noticed that it's still thriving with people so I guess I'm not alone on this feeling.
Well, one reason 1.03 is still thriving is that only the people that bought the game from spectromancer.com have access to the expansion so far. I believe everyone else (Greenhouse buyer myself) is still waiting...
| Ayayayay | 2010-03-07 04:31:29 |
In theory I agree with you. In practice, Illusion is not at a huge disadvantage, only a small but noticable one. Maybe for newbies the power gap is a little bigger. Hopefully they will stick with it long enough to get good enough where they can beat simple Beast and Sorc strategies. Ideally, if all classes were perfectly balanced, you'd be paying the $20 for variety and fun, not for an "edge" against other players. The current situation is not so bad...
...and it's CERTAINLY better than when Holy (boring class but second best in the game in 1.03) was the free class. Sometimes, if I played Chaos, Illusion, or Mechanician, I felt that *I* had no chance to win against Free Players!
...
Actually, this works really well in MMO's; it's probably THE most successful model in most Korean-style MMO's. It's annoying when that happens in a tight strategy game like this, though. Still, it's not fair to call it a large disadvantage. Play the better game and you'll still win... usually.
Well ,you just said that: US$ 20 dollars JUST FOR VARIETY AND FUN ... and that is great because that is what makes Spectromancer different
What I love about Spectromancer is/was that it puts (more on less) everybody, free and paid players, on a levelled field. I paid my 20 dollars no because I wanted to win more. I paid my 20 dollars because I wanted to play and have fun with the paid cards, even if some of them were weak or flawed.
Seriously, if I wanted a game where more money gives me more power and better chances to win, then I would go to play Magic.
And I agree that illusion is not exactly weak, but it is not the easiest school to play, and for newbie players it can be tricky. The nerfing just made Illusion a little more difficult to play, and I don't know if that is a good idea to atract new players
Illusion is clearly not just a bit more difficult to play now, that would be like saying nerfing all the cards it currently has even more and saying it's just to make it that much more "difficult". Difficult in this case can easily be exchanged with at a disadvantage from the start of every game. The way I look at it now is buying this game = paying to be better at the game, you can't deny that a person with access to the new OP classes is going to win a much higher % of games than someone with only the new nerfed down illusion class. It makes the game less fun for each person.
| Zannoland | 2010-03-08 18:20:58 |
Illusion is clearly not just a bit more difficult to play now, that would be like saying nerfing all the cards it currently has even more and saying it's just to make it that much more "difficult". Difficult in this case can easily be exchanged with at a disadvantage from the start of every game. The way I look at it now is buying this game = paying to be better at the game, you can't deny that a person with access to the new OP classes is going to win a much higher % of games than someone with only the new nerfed down illusion class. It makes the game less fun for each person. next time i see you on, you can play whatever class you want and i'll play illusion, and i'll saw you 5-0 just like i did last time i saw you online, and the time before that, and the time before that. illusion is still perfectly playable, and losing 2hp off my creatures is not going to tip anything in your favor.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-08 18:24:19 | AREA51_ | 2010-03-08 23:38:30 |
illusion sucks ... its a very small chance to win using this one. holy isnt the best but is the most balanced in the game. so if you NOW if you want to enjoy this game you must buy it.
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-09 04:00:07 |
Pretty sure I could beat any of you guys with Illusion! So I could win a lot without buying anything.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the nerfs were unnecessary. playng all this illusion game sucks harder than playing against holy before :)Â Modified by sain0 on 2010-03-09 06:52:31 It does make games a bit more predictable...
| walkindude | 2010-03-09 11:43:38 |
just speaking for myself, i bought the game (and the expansion), not because i wanted a better chance to win, but because i wanted to be able to use all of the cool stuff the game offers. it seems like every class has the goods to win, depending on the circumstances of the game. before the expansion, i was playing illusion in online games, and having fun with it :)
| Zannoland | 2010-03-09 22:31:08 |
Pretty sure I could beat any of you guys with Illusion! So I could win a lot without buying anything.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that the nerfs were unnecessary. this is essentially how i feel although in all honesty only the nerfs to illusion 6 and 7 are significant. nerfing illusion 8, which was in dire need of buffs, means only that a card which was so underpowered that it was never used under any circumstance will get used pretty much just as often (zero times per 100 games). the nerfs to illusion 5 are immaterial as a player had to literally go out of their way to construct a situation in which it would be left with 1 or 2 hp left. if you are capable of doing this, then congratulations, you are good at spectromancer (no sarcasm at all here).
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-09 22:32:34 | Wavelength | 2010-03-09 23:33:31 |
the nerfs to illusion 5 are immaterial as a player had to literally go out of their way to construct a situation in which it would be left with 1 or 2 hp left. if you are capable of doing this, then congratulations, you are good at spectromancer (no sarcasm at all here).
Armageddon. Inferno target combined with an attack from nearly half the creatures in the game. Five hits from a virgin elemental, minus one Nature Ritual. Dragon + Chain Lightning. Come on man, it's not that uncommon. The buff was so needless, since Spectral Assassin was such a well-balanced card already. Modified by Wavelength on 2010-03-09 23:34:56 | wiggin | 2010-03-09 23:38:54 |
I wrote about this in another thread. There is a huge list of cards that could possibly cause the two points to make a difference.
I'm pretty upset about this too considering Illusion is my best class.
Nerfing the free class is something I would expect to see in an RPG, not a strategy game. New players should be convinced to buy new classes because they want to try something new. They should not be convinced to buy new classes because the only one available to them puts them at a disadvantage.
Ideally, the free class should be a class that best teaches new players the ropes. I'd actually rather see Control as the free class. Control teaches you that you must read the other player, and that memorizing/figuring out their cards is really important. Control requires a lot of skill to use properly.
Oh well... at least Illusion 1, 2, 3, and 4 were untouched.
When I buy the expansion (because I want to try the new classes) I'll probably use Sorcery. It was a really fun class in the Beta.
Modified by LPML on 2010-03-10 23:03:53 | garcia1000 | 2010-03-11 08:39:49 |
I think Control would be not the best choice for a free class. It's really difficult to use, and its playstyle is really different from the other classes.
Mech or Illusion would be the best classes, I think. Teaches them the strategy of "Summon a lot of guys, beat them up"
One reason Holy was a bad free class is because Holy teaches "turtle and heal like a douchebag" which isn't fun | Wavelength | 2010-03-11 14:31:39 |
Nerfing the free class is something I would expect to see in an RPG, not a strategy game. New players should be convinced to buy new classes because they want to try something new. They should not be convinced to buy new classes because the only one available to them puts them at a disadvantage. I agree with this assessment completely. However, this was a pretty small nerf. It shouldn't have happened, and it should be reverted, probably, but it's not egregious. Ideally, the free class should be a class that best teaches new players the ropes. I'd actually rather see Control as the free class. Control teaches you that you must read the other player, and that memorizing/figuring out their cards is really important. Control requires a lot of skill to use properly.
Playing against Control 70% of the time might give me an aneurysm. I feel Holy is probably the best class for giving people a good overall swath of the game (Illusion and Mech are too much about rushing, in their own ways; Control is too much about watching your opponent which only good players can do effectively. Chaos and Death are not even close to good free classes). However, Holy also encouraged a very boring playstyle, especially in 1.03, which stagnated the game. That's why I'm happy the free class was changed to Illusion. Mech might have been the best choice but Illusion is pretty fun to play as or against, too. Playing against Control 70% of the time might give me an aneurysm.
I feel Holy is probably the best class for giving people a good overall swath of the game (Illusion and Mech are too much about rushing, in their own ways; Control is too much about watching your opponent which only good players can do effectively. Chaos and Death are not even close to good free classes). However, Holy also encouraged a very boring playstyle, especially in 1.03, which stagnated the game. That's why I'm happy the free class was changed to Illusion. Mech might have been the best choice but Illusion is pretty fun to play as or against, too.
Yeah Holy was a great free class because of how versatile the class is. It's a shame that Holy vs Holy mirrors degraded into turtling.
I agree that Chaos and Death are terrible free classes. Death is slow vs anything, and D v D boils down to who has the Phoenix. Chaos is more of a class you play for fun. You can win with it, but it is heavily dependent upon luck which makes it less than ideal for high level play.
Control does take a lot of skill to win with, and that was kind of my point. You don't get handed any free wins. You really have to learn the game inside and out to do well. Players that want to use easier classes could buy the full version, while those that don't will only win if they are dedicated to the game. If they get that dedicated then they are likely to buy the full version.It would be a win/win situation. It also teaches the best skill: Reading your opponent. While that skill is crucial for Control, it can be useful when playing any class.
Also I really do hope they buff Illusion in the future. Hopefully they'll look at mid-high level statistics.
Modified by LPML on 2010-03-11 15:21:26 go mech for next free class
go mech for next free class I'd feel bad for mech users. They'd have to nerf it, making it an even weaker class. | PanKiler | 2010-03-12 08:48:40 |
I'm happy with illusion as a free class it's so fun to play. Very dynamic.
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-12 10:27:17 |
Control does take a lot of skill to win with, and that was kind of my point. You don't get handed any free wins. You really have to learn the game inside and out to do well. Players that want to use easier classes could buy the full version, while those that don't will only win if they are dedicated to the game. If they get that dedicated then they are likely to buy the full version.It would be a win/win situation. It also teaches the best skill: Reading your opponent. While that skill is crucial for Control, it can be useful when playing any class.
That's a pretty terrible thing for a free class! A free class guy just wants to play a bit and try out the game, see if it's fun or not. If he has to memorize his opponent's options and know when to play weakness and stuff, that's not fun.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-12 15:43:10 |
... That's a pretty terrible thing for a free class! A free class guy just wants to play a bit and try out the game, see if it's fun or not. If he has to memorize his opponent's options and know when to play weakness and stuff, that's not fun.
I agree completely with this. Control is a lot of fun once you have hundreds of games under your belt. It would be very frustrating to try to win with right off the bat, especially before you even have a sense of how the game flows.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-12 21:36:20 |
I feel like any class that players will see for 70% of the games is boring. There's got to be another way of encouraging people to pay for this game. Right now people are just paying to be better at the game regardless of how good without them they claim that they are.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-12 21:47:39 |
I feel like any class that players will see for 70% of the games is boring. There's got to be another way of encouraging people to pay for this game. Right now people are just paying to be better at the game regardless of how good without them they claim that they are. Your opinion doesn't hold much weight until you've actually played it from both sides, though. Which, according to your profile, you haven't.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-13 04:42:04 |
Really it takes owning the game to know that playing 1 of the many classes 70% of the time is boring? And you can't even argue that you're paying to be better at the game right now, if you play illusion every match you will be destroyed by the 3 new classes and the stronger classes every match.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-14 02:36:53 |
Really it takes owning the game to know that playing 1 of the many classes 70% of the time is boring? And you can't even argue that you're paying to be better at the game right now, if you play illusion every match you will be destroyed by the 3 new classes and the stronger classes every match. No, I meant that it takes owning the game--and playing a couple hundred games--to be able to judge whether one class is truly better than another. If you were around during Beta, when NO ONE could play classes besides Holy and Illusion, Holy seemed like a weak class in comparison to Chaos or Control. Well, we were wrong. Holy is better than Chaos and at least in the same ballpark as Control. And it's ridiculous to accuse people of paying to be better at the game. Do they have an advantage as Control or Demonologist rather than Illusion? Sure. I'm not arguing that. I'm not asserting that the classes are well balanced against each other (because I don't think they are, by a long shot). But people generally pay for more variety and fun, and that is what they are getting. It's not a bunch of cheaters "buying their rank" in some conspiracy against you--I think you know that, but it's important to point out. Illusion is a smart choice for the free class. It just needs a few minor buffs. Hypnotyst needs a major buff.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-14 17:24:49 |
I didn't say that it was a conspiracy, but it's clearly undeniable that people are paying to be better at the game, that's the whole point of getting the better classes. Even if the best player in the game right now Seleata was forced to used illusion every game he would get drastically worse and get alot less enjoyment out of the game due to losing to cards. And btw if people were just buying the expansions to get more variety out of the game they wouldn't have nerfed the free class, the sole purpose of doing that is so that people feel compelled to pay for it so they don't lose all the time. I agree with the OP, it's a real shady move by what I thought was a pretty decent company and in the long run it makes the game overall less fun, not just for the people who are at a disadvantage all the time, but also for the people who are forced to play 70% of the games against one class, even if they do get wins handed to them.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-15 02:44:40 |
Okay, let me put it this way. If the new classes were interesting, but weaker than Illusion, well over half the people who bought the expansion would still buy it. They'd complain that it needs to be buffed (as would I), but they'd still buy it and play as those classes. They are buying the expanion, therefore, for variety and fun, not to get more powerful (which is a side bonus that they experience).
Also, if SeaLeta or FinalSlayer or EricKiller or a bunch of other really good players played Illusion every time, and I played any class I wanted, they'd still beat me 60-80% of the time, and would probably beat you close to 100% of the time (I say probably based on your profile, since I've never gotten to play you. Sorry if you feel this isn't a fair assessment.).
| Falcorn | 2010-03-16 18:24:48 |
Yes, obviously it's a tad bit of an unfair assessment, I played this game back when it first came out of beta, many people have alt accounts on here and this is one I use on school computers. I feel that if we played 10 matches, me using sorcery and you using illusion, I would beat you at least 8 out of 10, strictly due to card setups, never even having played you because some hands are nearly unwinnable if you're illusion against the new classes. Even the great players like Sealeta would go down in wins drastically, they would still bring the skill that they normally do so they would win a high amount of games, but it would be no where near as much as they can now simply due to cards that they aren't receiving that people who pay for the game get to use. Buying the game now = huge advantage, whether you claim to be paying for it for that reason or not, the case remains the same, you're buying the game to be better.
| Zannoland | 2010-03-16 18:51:47 |
...
No, I meant that it takes owning the game--and playing a couple hundred games--to be able to judge whether one class is truly better than another. If you were around during Beta, when NO ONE could play classes besides Holy and Illusion, Holy seemed like a weak class in comparison to Chaos or Control. Well, we were wrong. Holy is better than Chaos and at least in the same ballpark as Control.
And it's ridiculous to accuse people of paying to be better at the game. Do they have an advantage as Control or Demonologist rather than Illusion? Sure. I'm not arguing that. I'm not asserting that the classes are well balanced against each other (because I don't think they are, by a long shot). But people generally pay for more variety and fun, and that is what they are getting. It's not a bunch of cheaters "buying their rank" in some conspiracy against you--I think you know that, but it's important to point out.
Illusion is a smart choice for the free class. It just needs a few minor buffs. Hypnotyst needs a major buff.
Hypnotist definitely needs to go back to 6 attack, and Oracle needs to go back to 9 attack. Both these cards have a glaring vulnerability to Tornado and as a result should be more powerful than Archangel and Ancient Giant, right now they are not even close. I think Oracle was fine where she was last patch, but Hypnotist I never used, unless I needed something to block WoG or Dragon/Chain in the last 2 turns of the game.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-16 18:53:36 | Wavelength | 2010-03-16 21:04:05 |
Yes, obviously it's a tad bit of an unfair assessment, I played this game back when it first came out of beta, many people have alt accounts on here and this is one I use on school computers. I feel that if we played 10 matches, me using sorcery and you using illusion, I would beat you at least 8 out of 10, strictly due to card setups, never even having played you because some hands are nearly unwinnable if you're illusion against the new classes. Had I not been traveling next week, I'd take you up on that as soon as possible. Let's test your theory next month. Buying the game now = huge advantage, whether you claim to be paying for it for that reason or not, the case remains the same, you're buying the game to be better. Buying the game is a big advantage, don't get me wrong. But whatever I "claim", the truth remains that I didn't buy the game to be better, and nor did most others. If that were the case, why would we keep playing Illusion sometimes? Hypnotist definitely needs to go back to 6 attack, and Oracle needs to go back to 9 attack. Both these cards have a glaring vulnerability to Tornado and as a result should be more powerful than Archangel and Ancient Giant, right now they are not even close. I think Oracle was fine where she was last patch, but Hypnotist I never used, unless I needed something to block WoG or Dragon/Chain in the last 2 turns of the game.
I'm in favor of bringing Oracle back to 9/40 (or at least 9/38), and I'd like to see Hypnotyst at 5/42 with a 6-damage effect. But I have no idea why "vulnerability to Tornado" is such a big deal. If my opponent uses Tornado on my Hypnotyst (even before he got smashed with a nerfbat), I'm happy. That means I drained 10 of his air power and did 5-6 damage to him and his creatures, in exchange for 8 of my special power. Sounds fair to me! | Ayayayay | 2010-03-17 01:54:05 |
This discussion is going nowhere... and I think this game community is still awfully small to start drawing lines and putting some player's opinion down because he hasn't played enough, because he was not playing since alfa, or because he is not lvl 20+ 
The issue here is if nerfing illusion has made the game more difficult for newcomers, casual gamers y regular players. If such is the case, it could become a problem if more people feels the game is "too difficult" and give up without buying the game.
Let's remember that:
1) So far most duels are still illusion vs illusion, so perhaps, "illusion's weakness" is not so evident since most players are winning and losing against other illusion players.
However, perhaps when paid players become more common, the advantage of other houses against illusion will become more visible
2) I can only talk bout my experience. So far still playing the free version. In duels again illusion mirrors I am doing fine, However, the times I have faced other school I have had a rough time. In particular, sorcery seems umbeatable against illusion.
As I said, it is my personal experience. Perhaps it is just that I am not used to play illusion against other houses (particularly the new houses), or perhaps it is that illusion is not easy to play, or perhaps it is just that illusion is weak. Too soon to know, but still I have the impression that nerfing illusion was the wrong move
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-17 02:26:35 |
Wavelength/Falcorn, I agree with both of you.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-17 02:28:11 |
Yes I somewhat agree, I don't feel like newcomers will be shyed away from this game due to difficulty, beginning any online game you have to expect to lose forwhile until you get it down. I feel that people will be upset though when they begin to lose after they've learned how to play well simply due to cards. No one here is argueing the fact though that this game would soooo much more fun if every player had access to every class, playing one class over and over in any form will get old. Find something else to charge people for devs, this whole illusion thing is so annoying.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-17 16:08:01 |
Well, I can't think of too many things that you can charge for where anyone who really likes the game is going to be willing to pay when they could have everything else for free. A lof of people are already complaining about how $10 for the entire expansion pack was unfair (and I couldn't disagree with them more; I think it's a real bargain). So, I'm sure the devs are open to ideas, but if they had a more fun way to do it where they could also earn good revenue, I'm sure they would have in the first place.
The tricky thing is that this game inherently works best in multiplayer, so throwing in extra single-player options isn't going to cut it in terms of encouraging people to pay. I'd be willing to pay $20 for greatly expanded tournament functionality, but not everyone would - it's probably something that would be better to include in a future expansion or release as a separate $5-$10 enhancement where people who buy the enhancement can start expanded tournaments and anyone can join.
Having said that, I agree that only playing one class might be a bit scant, now that there are nine classes out there. Allowing free players two different classes (I would recomment Mech/Illusion or Holy/Mech) would allow them to enjoy and appreciate the game more, and still leave over three-quarters of the classes locked, as an incentive to buy the game. It was the standard in Beta (before you could buy the game at all), it worked nicely, and I think it would mean better times for all.
And either way, I'd be in favor of restoring Illusion cards 5-7 to their pre-nerf state, and greatly buffing 8.
| Zannoland | 2010-03-17 16:40:57 |
...
Had I not been traveling next week, I'd take you up on that as soon as possible. Let's test your theory next month.
...
Buying the game is a big advantage, don't get me wrong. But whatever I "claim", the truth remains that I didn't buy the game to be better, and nor did most others. If that were the case, why would we keep playing Illusion sometimes?
...
I'm in favor of bringing Oracle back to 9/40 (or at least 9/38), and I'd like to see Hypnotyst at 5/42 with a 6-damage effect. But I have no idea why "vulnerability to Tornado" is such a big deal. If my opponent uses Tornado on my Hypnotyst (even before he got smashed with a nerfbat), I'm happy. That means I drained 10 of his air power and did 5-6 damage to him and his creatures, in exchange for 8 of my special power. Sounds fair to me!
Because the other special 8s are not vulnerable to tornado, as they have a come-into-play effect instead of an on-turn effect. Losing your oracle to torando is as crippling as losing dragon. With 8 illusion mana you could do 40 damage to your opponent, so I have no clue how you think you're getting a good trade. Prepatch I believe Oracle was balanced fine against Ancient Giant and Archangel if the opponent can't Tornado it. That's a pretty big conditional, and now Oracle is simply worse than both of those cards even if it can't be tornadoed.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-17 16:43:17 | Wavelength | 2010-03-17 17:42:13 |
... Because the other special 8s are not vulnerable to tornado, as they have a come-into-play effect instead of an on-turn effect. Losing your oracle to torando is as crippling as losing dragon. With 8 illusion mana you could do 40 damage to your opponent, so I have no clue how you think you're getting a good trade.
Prepatch I believe Oracle was balanced fine against Ancient Giant and Archangel if the opponent can't Tornado it. That's a pretty big conditional, and now Oracle is simply worse than both of those cards even if it can't be tornadoed.
I don't know whether you just didn't state your case well, or just made a severe error in reasoning, but what you're saying doesn't make any sense. "With 8 Illusion mana you could do 40 damage to your opponent"--this assumes you have Oracle in play (and even then it's 36 damage). You used it in response to my assertion that the 8 illusion mana is a fine price to pay for when *Hypnotyst* is Tornadoed. You can't have Oracle and Hypnotyst in your hand in the same game. That 8 illusion mana IS usually worth losing to lower the opponent's air by 10 and do 5-6 damage to them and all their creatures, without losing any overall board control. You also get to flush out your opponent's Tornado, which is a bonus. So maybe Oracle is very vulnerable to Tornado, but so is Mind Master, Hydra, Master Healer, Dragon, Ancient Dragon (at least as much so as Hypnotyst), Mindstealer, Insanian Catapult, Phoenix, Cannon, every Elemental, and three quarters of the other cards in the game. Sonic Boom is vulnerable to Ancient Giant, Stone Rain is vulnerable to Phantom Warrior, which is in turn vulnerable to Basilisk, and Astral Guard is vulnerable to Tornado. Every card has its weaknesses, and every card deals better against some cards than others. Not every card needs come-into-play effects. Tornado, as a card that is only good because a lot of cards can be thwarted with it, is not broken, and any card with a "vulnerability" to it doesn't explicitly need a buff (Oracle DOES need a buff, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with its "vulnerability" to Tornado). Archangel and Ancient Giant, as two of the strongest cards in the entire game, are not fair comparisons for either Oracle or Hypnotyst. On a scale of one to ten, they would both be a 10. Oracle would be a 7 pre-nerf, and a 5 now. Hypnotyst would be a 3.
Modified by Wavelength on 2010-03-17 17:43:39 | Zannoland | 2010-03-17 20:12:03 |
...
I don't know whether you just didn't state your case well, or just made a severe error in reasoning, but what you're saying doesn't make any sense. "With 8 Illusion mana you could do 40 damage to your opponent"--this assumes you have Oracle in play (and even then it's 36 damage). You used it in response to my assertion that the 8 illusion mana is a fine price to pay for when *Hypnotyst* is Tornadoed. You can't have Oracle and Hypnotyst in your hand in the same game. That 8 illusion mana IS usually worth losing to lower the opponent's air by 10 and do 5-6 damage to them and all their creatures, without losing any overall board control. You also get to flush out your opponent's Tornado, which is a bonus.
So maybe Oracle is very vulnerable to Tornado, but so is Mind Master, Hydra, Master Healer, Dragon, Ancient Dragon (at least as much so as Hypnotyst), Mindstealer, Insanian Catapult, Phoenix, Cannon, every Elemental, and three quarters of the other cards in the game. Sonic Boom is vulnerable to Ancient Giant, Stone Rain is vulnerable to Phantom Warrior, which is in turn vulnerable to Basilisk, and Astral Guard is vulnerable to Tornado. Every card has its weaknesses, and every card deals better against some cards than others. Not every card needs come-into-play effects. Tornado, as a card that is only good because a lot of cards can be thwarted with it, is not broken, and any card with a "vulnerability" to it doesn't explicitly need a buff (Oracle DOES need a buff, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with its "vulnerability" to Tornado).
Archangel and Ancient Giant, as two of the strongest cards in the entire game, are not fair comparisons for either Oracle or Hypnotyst. On a scale of one to ten, they would both be a 10. Oracle would be a 7 pre-nerf, and a 5 now. Hypnotyst would be a 3.
1) you're talking in circles and completely ignored everything i said. i said absolutely nothing about having an illusion 7/8 hand 2) 10 air mana for 8 illusion mana is a horrible trade. it is much better to summon illusion 5/6 no matter what the circumstances are. 3) i really don't see how you don't understand that a card that takes 3-4 turns for its effect to be cost effective deserves to be stronger than a card of which its effect happens on summoning. keeper of death has the same issue. no tornado in hand, can't play it, it's too risky and will cost you the game to lose it.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-17 20:12:12 | Papadopol | 2010-03-17 21:59:17 |
Illusion ... hmm ... if you think that you will be lvl 10 playing with Illusion class ... its an Illusion because you cant.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-17 22:10:25 |
You've clearly gone off the deep end, Zanno. May I recommend getting a good night's sleep, playing a few more rounds of Illusion, and then responding? 1) you're talking in circles and completely ignored everything i said. i said absolutely nothing about having an illusion 7/8 hand
I simply didn't ignore anything you said. In fact, it seems to be the other way around. I said that having your Hypnotyst Tornado'd is a good trade. You responded with "With 8 illusion mana you could do 40 damage to your opponent, so I have no clue how you think you're getting a good trade." and the only time I mentioned the trade was the Hypmotyst-Tornado trade. Now, you can't deal 40 (or even close) damage to your opponent using Hypnotyst. You do it by somehow managing to build up 8 mana after your Hypnotyst comes out. Why would the 40 damage apply to a Hypnotyst hand? 2) 10 air mana for 8 illusion mana is a horrible trade. it is much better to summon illusion 5/6 no matter what the circumstances are.
10 air mana for 8 illusion mana alone would be a horrible trade. Did you somehow forget that Hypnotyst DOES have a come-into-play effect? Hypnotyst, even in its current crappy form, still gives you over half of a Chain Lightning (Cost: 8 air mana) before it gets Tornado'd, and you don't need to spend another turn launching that "spell". Not only that, but you make your opponent tip Tornado, and you can put out an Elemental or Dragon directly afterwards. 3) i really don't see how you don't understand that a card that takes 3-4 turns for its effect to be cost effective deserves to be stronger than a card of which its effect happens on summoning. keeper of death has the same issue. no tornado in hand, can't play it, it's too risky and will cost you the game to lose it.
This is where it became clear you were deprived of sleep, or just plain out of your mind. Time-release effects ARE stronger than immediate ones. Creatures whose effects take time to be effective: Master Healer, Astral Guard, Mind Master, Earth Elemental, Keeper of Death (an excellent card and just below Blood Ritual as the Best in Set), Merfolk Elder, Mindstealer, Merfolk Overlord, Basilisk (generally), and Demon Quartermaster. Creatures which offer immediate effects: Bargul, Banshee, Fire Drake, White Elephant, Steam Tank (not bad but one of the weaker 8's), and, ironically for your argument, Hypnotyst. Yeah, this is a biased list, but look how many counterexamples exist to your whole "immediate effects cards are better" argument. It's just a stupid point to base your argument around. And it wasn't done just because of Tornado, it was done because there are several ways to axe a Master Healer or Mind Master before it really makes an impact. Modified by Wavelength on 2010-03-17 22:12:13 | Zannoland | 2010-03-17 23:24:49 |
Yeah, this is a biased list, but look how many counterexamples exist to your whole "immediate effects cards are better" argument. It's just a stupid point to base your argument around. And it wasn't done just because of Tornado, it was done because there are several ways to axe a Master Healer or Mind Master before it really makes an impact. That's not at all what I said. In fact you are agreeing with me whether or not you realize it. What I said is that cards with on-turn effects deserve to be stronger, because of their glaring vulnerability to Tornado. Oracle used to be fit this criteria. Now she doesn't. I would rather use that 8 illusion mana to flood the board with wall of reflect, or keep it on reserve to shred the board with multiple spectral mage. Hypnotyst is almost never the right play, and I'd hate to pull this card, but my illusion rec. vs your illusion rec. should vouch for this. Even chaincasting Hypnosis is a better use of illusion mana. @Papadol: I got to Lvl 15 with over 75% of my matches as illusion vs cleric. The class is not weak, it's just hard to use, like a sniper rifle in an FPS or something. Illusion vs. Control is very hard, and I normally switch classes. On the flipside, a lot of the free class players keep doing stupid things like waste their air on card like phoenix and tornado when they really need to be sinking all their mana into air damage cards like griffin and lightning bolt.
Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-17 23:31:32 | Kaylee | 2010-03-17 23:34:15 |
I agree there. Though I'd like to point out that it's not just the glaring vulnerability to Tornado that helps keep these scaling cards in check. A variety of cards can kill off the on-turn effect cards before they have a chance to pay for your investment. Even more significantly, the game itself could end before the delayed effects have a chance to tip things in your favor. They should be powerful.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-18 02:42:41 |
That's not at all what I said. In fact you are agreeing with me whether or not you realize it. What I said is that cards with on-turn effects deserve to be stronger, because of their glaring vulnerability to Tornado. Oracle used to be fit this criteria. Now she doesn't.
Well, they should be strong enough so that, considering how long it's going to live, it's balanced against cards that have a come-into-play effect. If that's all you were saying, then I'm not agreeing with you, we are both agreeing with the patent common sense that any player with three living brain cells would advocate. I thought you were arguing that they ("they" meaning most cards with effects that take place over time) are NOT balanced right now and they need to be. Yes, Oracle is now underpowered, but the real reason for that is the seemingly illogical nerf to 8 attack. I would rather use that 8 illusion mana to flood the board with wall of reflect, or keep it on reserve to shred the board with multiple spectral mage. Hypnotyst is almost never the right play, and I'd hate to pull this card, but my illusion rec. vs your illusion rec. should vouch for this. Even chaincasting Hypnosis is a better use of illusion mana.
Three quarters or so of my Illusion games were in Beta (when I used it to crush Clerics) so comparing our records doesn't mean anything, even though your personal record with it is impressive. Obviously the 8 Illusion mana isn't best spend on Hypnotyst most of the time - and I know that you realize I've been saying that this entire thread. Wall of Reflections is a good play in the right situations; chaincasting spells which don't affect mana or the board is always a bad move unless you can win in a couple of turns; two Spectral Mages is nice but it costs 12 Illusion mana; assuming the Hypnotyst lives, you can get two Hypnotysts down during this span which means that it's not always the inferior strategy. Again, it's pretty situational. Why not make it so that free players use a random class? That way there would always be variety and it would be worth it still for players to buy, being able to use an OP class whenever you want. Then free players wouldn't be forced into the worst class in the game, which is angering many fans.
| Wavelength | 2010-03-18 16:23:04 |
Why not make it so that free players use a random class? That way there would always be variety and it would be worth it still for players to buy, being able to use an OP class whenever you want. Then free players wouldn't be forced into the worst class in the game, which is angering many fans.
I thought about suggesting that, but decided it would actually be more frustrating to new players, getting to play the class they like and then not being able to again until they've played several more rounds. Not only would it be hard to ever get into a groove with a style of play, but it would encourage abuse: some people who don't care about rank would keep going random and surrendering until they got the class they wanted. Also, forcing random might seem spiteful to anyone who was forced to use it, making it harder to encourage the purchase. It would be a slightly better experience from the point of view of people who bought the game, but a much worse one for most people who haven't.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-18 18:41:13 |
Certainly playing a diffrent class every time would be less frustrating then playing the worst class in the game over and over again just so that you can lose to people who paid for the game. It would be harder to get into a groove, but it would help the new player learn all the classes pretty well. And I would be shocked if anyone used this system to there advantage in the way that you have stated. Who would sit there that long hitting random and then leaving just to use one class they liked for a game? I feel like this change would make the game better overall for people who have paid for the game and those who have not. Everyone gets a ton more variety, free players aren't forced into a disadvantage and we get back a good strategy game. The only people I see having a problem with this are the people who truly paid for the game purely to be better at it... which I feel might be a very large portion.
| NecRus888 | 2010-03-18 19:34:31 |
Illusion is not weaker class! Like a cleric is not too!
All classes is good balanced!
If you want using a game and having fun, then you must buy the game! It's simple law in our world!
People, who didn't buy the game, haven't any rights, but you are not true customers! Real customers can change their class as they want, and must have advantage before others because they supporting developers and game!
Apus Team is very good boys, because they allows to all people playing unlimited time for free and they can choose which class will be free and what wil be with balance!
Stop crying, girls! Take a money and go buying this pretty game!
Sorry for bad english))) It's not my native language)))
Ok paco maybe you shouldn't have commented then if you couldn't understand what the 60 previous posts were about. Everyone is pretty much in agreeance here that illusion is one of if not the worst classes in the game right now, especially when compared to the new classes. And this is a strategy game, the devs shouldn't be pushing sales by making the game more unbalanced, like you clearly just said you enjoy about paying for the game... being better than other people which is very sad. I feel like making free players play random classes each time and paid players able to choose their class and plus have the other paid options would be incentive to buy still without making this game boring and unfair like it is right now.
| NecRus888 | 2010-03-19 09:57:55 |
I think, Devs may cancel free-unlimited-play. And most people will buy the game. And then game will not boring and unfair.
Modified by NecRus888 on 2010-03-19 10:00:22 | Zannoland | 2010-03-19 18:34:27 |
Ok paco maybe you shouldn't have commented then if you couldn't understand what the 60 previous posts were about. Everyone is pretty much in agreeance here that illusion is one of if not the worst classes in the game right now, especially when compared to the new classes. And this is a strategy game, the devs shouldn't be pushing sales by making the game more unbalanced, like you clearly just said you enjoy about paying for the game... being better than other people which is very sad. I feel like making free players play random classes each time and paid players able to choose their class and plus have the other paid options would be incentive to buy still without making this game boring and unfair like it is right now. The only agreement in this thread is between wavelength and a lot of noobs, and I'm not even sure wavelength is saying illusion is weak, he's saying the nerfs were unnecessary. The last time I saw you online, I whipped you with my illusion vs. your cleric like 15 games in a row. I am truly, truly sorry that you are so bad at the class. Modified by Zannoland on 2010-03-19 18:35:39 | Wavelength | 2010-03-19 19:10:37 |
The only agreement in this thread is between wavelength and a lot of noobs, and I'm not even sure wavelength is saying illusion is weak, he's saying the nerfs were unnecessary.
To clear things up, my opinion is that Illusion was, before the nerf, the weakest class in the game by a razor-thin margin. So, it would have been perfectly fine to make no changes to Illusion (or even buff Hypnotyst) and have it be the free class. Now, it is clearly the weakest class, and moreso than it was before, which is why the changes baffled me. The divide between Illusion and Chaos/Mech is still relatively small, but bigger than before. The class is still completely playable and completely competitive, but every nerf to it was a change that, in my view, should not have happened.
| Kaylee | 2010-03-20 00:35:10 |
I think all of the elemental card changes benefited Illusion. The new Air 5 seems much more deadly for the "quick kill" style games at which Illusion excels. The Giant Spider card is another card that I play much more often as Illusion than as other classes. The nerf to the Water Elemental is very slight, but it is a source of healing, and Illusion really hates healing cards. And the nerf to Faerie Sage is huge. Your opponent has Faerie Sage in about 1/3 of games. I would venture that almost every single one of these games is now more winnable for Illusion than they were in the past, even with the slight nerfs to Illusion's cards. The nerf to Faerie sage is highly significant almost every time Illusion's opponent draws it. I would still agree that the Illusion nerfs were unnecessary simply because Illusion was a bit weak before and the above changes would have helped fix that. However, I don't think it actually got much weaker with this new patch. It *may* have actually gotten stronger, on average. I predict the Faerie Sage nerf will play a deciding role in games much more often than the Illusion nerfs will.
Modified by Kaylee on 2010-03-20 04:08:45 | Falcorn | 2010-03-20 21:10:54 |
Ok debating how much the said nerfs to illusion is one thing, but it doesn't change the fact that illusion is still one of the worst classes in the game and the nerfs weren't needed. Compared to any of the new classes or stronger classes it's destined to get steamrolled right off the bat. The main class you come acrossed is sorcery because most players pay for the game and then use the best class it offers. It would still make sense to allow free players to play a random class each game, players would still pay to use sorcery all the time. I think it's pretty much non debatable that allowing free players to use a random class instead of being forced into illusion would make the game better as whole.
| wiggin | 2010-03-20 21:15:07 |
I don't really see why you should let free players use random class. Why can't they just pay. It's a cheap game, and it's good to support independent games like this. If you have several hours to use playing this game instead of working, you have $20 to spend on it. I don't see any problem with having the free players restricted to a weak class.
I don't really see why you should let free players use random class. Why can't they just pay. It's a cheap game, and it's good to support independent games like this. If you have several hours to use playing this game instead of working, you have $20 to spend on it. I don't see any problem with having the free players restricted to a weak class. The problem is that it limits the amount of classes that paying players can use at a competitive level. We essentially just lost a class, and an interesting class at that.
Though you could say that was balanced out by the addition of three new classes. | wiggin | 2010-03-21 01:06:30 |
... The problem is that it limits the amount of classes that paying players can use at a competitive level. We essentially just lost a class, and an interesting class at that.
Yes, I agree. That is the problem. | Falcorn | 2010-03-21 03:16:37 |
Yeah not to be mean Wiggin's honestly but that's kind of unconstructive. You'll always have free players no matter what unless you make the 20$ manditory, a large portion of the playerbase is free so it's sad to see that you as well are in favor of paying to be better at this game essentially. Would you not agree that if free players played random this game would be more varied? Instead of 70% of the time versing one class you get to verse diffrent classes all the time, which at the same time letting the new user get a feel for the diffrent classes out there. Right now the current situation is either buy the game or suck terribly, and if you do buy the game use sorcery 90% of the time as it's the most OP right now, great gameplan for a strategy game. Kind of turns this chess like game into chess where one player starts with an army of queens and the other guy is still rocking pawns, the guy rocking the queens will win more but it has alot less to do with skill than the disadvantage that their opponent is playing with.
| wiggin | 2010-03-21 07:50:08 |
I dunno, I play random usually. I think the desire to buy the game would be reduced greatly if you are allowed to play random for free. And that would be a bad plan for them.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-21 15:16:44 |
I see what you mean, but you have to look at the trade off. Allowing the free user to use random would instantly change this game from playing and versing one class most of the time to having full variety. And Wiggin's not that you're an exeption but you are a very skilled player, most people at this point play purely sorcery if they own the game as it's the most OP right now. I would guess that 95% of the players that would eventually buy this game have done it so now would not be a bad time to introduce this change. Paying to play whichever class you like is a valid option as well as having the full 1player mode. I mean I like seeing the devs profit as well but ruining their own game just for some extra coin is kind of a low move and made me lose sooooo much respect for this company.
| Dominant | 2010-03-23 22:53:58 |
hey guys am i wrong or wall of lightnig got a BIG buff ?
(a buff especialy good for illu class)
another one air 4 got a BIG nerf?
(also a big buff for illu class)
and before 1.1 when i played ilu i never used hypno and almouts never ilu 7
for me illu is all about speed and bord control + taking oponent life in the meentime
illu 7 and 8 are usless in my opinion now or before illu 4 5 6 much more beter as creatures
im not an illlu specialist at all but
for me personaly illu got a buff thx to air 4 and 5
but its only becouse my style of play with illu neglates ilu 7 and 8
falcorn why wont you type from your main acc ?
we could see how many llu games you playd before
maby you just suck at this school cuz you dont have good skill to play with it ?
illu mech and control for me personaly (bestmaster too but im not sure) are the hardest classes to truly master
i was shit in illu so i didnt play to many games with it 10 lv later after the update i played illu and for my suprise i won most of the games
a bigger % then with control but my ass got kicked by 18+ lvls badly
i dont think illu is a teribly week class the problem with it is that it sucks against few schools chaos holy
but sorcery sucks big time vs control its just the whey they are
best in my opinion is much weeker then illu atm
i think some more balanced shool vs other shools shud be random
cleric was and is the most balanced class of all in my opinion but its not about lv in this game ppl its about fun
and there is the problem illu is fun for a moment i got bored with it fast, cuz there arent many interestin long as f games at all
kill or die fast style
| wiggin | 2010-03-23 23:08:26 |
You're right. Air 5 was situational before. Now it's a power card.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-24 02:12:01 |
@Dominant, I'm really hoping that english isn't your first language. I'm not at all argueing that the air 4 change slightly offset the nerfs that illusion recieved, I don't think anyone is. My main point was that throwing any kind of nerf on illusion was unneeded especially when compared with the new classes, and doing it purely because it's the free class is even lower. I think making the free class play random was the best idea on here but idk, it seems pretty clear that most of the players here prefer to pay for wins instead of making this game overall more fair and varied.
| fail22 | 2010-03-24 02:23:58 |
New class random is a bad idea. For one, that is all I have every done when I paid so a lot less people would pay. An idea that results in less revenue is bad. Consider that the developers do not want a game in which 70% of the playerbase doesn't pay. That is not their goal. I don't agree to the illusion changes, but I think some fixes to a few of their cards makes sense to solve the problem rather than giving free players more.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-24 03:17:28 |
You seem to have missed some points here, when over half of your player base is free it should be their goal to make them competative but still with an incentive to maybe pay someday. And just because you play random doesn't change the fact that 90% of the people with paid accounts only use sorcery right now as it's the most OP class, people would still buy the game if free players played random. I think you just don't want it to happen because you wouldn't get auto wins against free players who are forced into using the worst class in the game. Not one person who thinks this is a bad idea has disagreed with the fact that spectromancer as a whole would be immenstly more varied and fun if there were a ton of random players out their instead of a ton of players I can just steamroll through because they didn't pay money and are forced to use the worst class in the game. Do you honestly think Spectro is a better game when you're playing unfair matches against the same type of opponent 70% of the time? Yeah that's definatly what a strategy game should be about.
| Dominant | 2010-03-24 12:43:31 |
Falcorn its not a charity Ppl spend their time and effort to make this game and they shuld get some cash for it. Its simple About the nerfs and buffs more important then the air 4 nerf is the air 5 buff and as i did sey (in my opinion)and as i didnt use 7 and 8 anyways (there slow and soft and illu isabout a hard and fast playing style) the shool got buffed since 1,03 and you sed tornado on my illu 8 or 7 bla bla not like contrl or holy 8 then: a: dont play them when somone has ir close to 10 or above and think about chaos 5,6 lame cards as f, but it dosnt make chaos a crap shool dose it ? cuz it got other great cards the same thing with illu and the only problem with ilu is that its week as hell vs few shools but still its a ok class insted of postin all the things you did try to master it let me tell you something recently was the first time i playd illu in a month or two, and guess what i won 5 or 6 games in a row with a 15 lv Aleron or so 3 games in a row with a 13 lv and few wins with some 8-11 lvls zerogames lost i was shocked but then lv 28 smashed me like 6 times in a row an the other side he would probobly smash me no mather wich class i would play exept control (my class) illu is ok its not fair in your opinion cuz it's crap vs holy and chaos ? and holy was strong vs all school cmn thats a such a terible thing ? not a lot of ppl play holy and chaos i cant see why in your opinion sorc is strong vs illu? i didnt play a good sorc as illu so i cant tell btw. english isn't my 1st language Modified by Dominant on 2010-03-24 13:21:13 | Kaylee | 2010-03-24 14:08:41 |
There are two ways to play Illusion. The first is to go for a quick kill. Do whatever you can to gain a slight board advantage, and then once you have it do whatever you can to leak the maximum amount of damage through to the opponent every turn. You'll likely have to spend your mana in some very inefficient ways in order to maximize damage. And at some point you're going to stop placing creatures altogether and focus completely on finishing spells. If your opponent has enough healing to survive your assault, you will absolutely lose because you have not been preparing for a drawn out fight at all.
I think this style of game has actually gotten a lot stronger since the patch. The changes to Air 4 and 5 are huge.
The other style is to focus instead on strong board control and healing and go for a long game. Illusion actually has more scaling cards than any of the other houses, so it has some very strong options in long games. Illusion 1, 2, and 6 can all be used to help counter any strong elementals or other powerful creatures you might encounter, and Illusion 7 and 8 become absolute monsters if they live long enough.
The trouble is that Illusion's main tools in winning these long games have all been nerfed. And sometimes the "quick kill" style games are unwinnable, even with the new changes. One of the most interesting things about Illusion is trying to decide which sort of game to play. "When do I go in for the kill, and when do I invest in a stronger board presence?" That's really a fundamental question that all of the classes have to ask, but it seems much more important when playing Illusion, partly because they can move in for the kill much more quickly than the other classes, and partly because their "investments in board presence" are often literal investments that require several turns to pay off (Illusion 7 and 8).
I'm a little bit worried that Illusion will become more of a one trick pony with the new changes. Their quick game has been improved and their long game has been weakened. I've been playing a lot of Illusion lately, and I find myself rushing in for the kill within the first few turns of almost every match. Now that's been a lot of fun, and its certainly been working very well for me, but its not as interesting as it used to be, IMO.
Note that I'm not complaining that Illusion got weaker. I actually think it got stronger, on average, because even in the older version Illusion's best bet was to go in for a quick kill most of the time. I'm just sad to see Illusion lose some of its flavor (if my worries prove to be justified).
| Falcorn | 2010-03-24 15:27:24 |
I'm not denying the fact that illusion is winnable, it's just at a clear disadvantage especially against the new classes. Again you two just wrote a combined 5 pages of text up there but not once did you guys disagree that making the free class random would add tons of variety and skill to this game. But I guess you guys enjoy getting gimme wins against players with unfair matches too much.
| fAIL22 | 2010-03-25 00:06:55 |
Wow a lot of trolling from Falcorn.
Why would I buy the expansion if it cost money if I could play random? I'm stuck until they have a greenhouse version. But since all I ever played was random, I'd never buy the expansion if that was the case. Neither would a lot of other people. Nor would this change convince free people to buy the game. Therefore, epic fail as a suggestion. I think you are over estimating the worth of choosing your class. Would anyone here pay 20$ to pick classes if the default was free random class? I actually doubt many would but correct me players if that is not the case. I wouldn't pay 3$
The making free class random adding to the game is a smoke and mirrors argument. Making everything free would be best by that criteria, but it would be a stupid criterion. Better to make the game the most enjoyable for the PAYING customers, which means 8 balanced and interesting classes.
Also, I agree with Kaylee. The changes seem like they make illusion more 1 dimensional. Its a good dimension, but at high levels of play it seems like this could make games less interesting.
| Kaylee | 2010-03-25 01:35:25 |
Agreed. Good arguments there, fAIL22.
By the way... There's a way to convert your Greenhouse code into a
standard code. The topic detailing how is stickied at the top of the
forum.
"That's right!
Seems that
Greenhouse won't be ready to release the game soon. So, if you have a
code from Greenhouse, please send it to support@spectromancer.com
and I'll send you a new code that works for LoH version." | Falcorn | 2010-03-25 02:56:09 |
How was that a good argument, he didn't even answer one of my points. Again I'll ask the question, you guys have responded with 3 or 4 massive posts but not once did you respond to this, I wonder why. Would spectromancer as a whole, for paying and free customers, not be better if the free class was random? No longer would 70% of the games be against the same class and players would overall know the game a bit more. I guess this isn't fun for you guys though because as I've stated before you wouldn't be getting gimme wins in unfair matchups all the time, I literally think that this is the main reason you're all so against it. And aslo, as I've stated more than once, paid players are only using sorcery right now anyway as it's the most OP, players will always pay to be better, which you two display very clearly, so people would still pay to play what they want all the time and there are other incentives for paying as well.
Yeah I as well think that Fail22 brought forth a terrible argument. How is Falcorn trolling, the post is titled free class and has been about problems with free players and how to fix it the whole time. He's literally asked like 4 or 5 times whether you guys think you would have more fun with the current setup playing 70% of your games vs. a gimped illusion class or being able to have variety all the time and you've ignored him and tried derailing. If anyone is trolling it's you two trying to explain how to play the illusion class like it's relavent to this thread.
| traviss | 2010-03-25 03:42:09 |
@Falcorn: I understand your question. Yes, the game would likely be more fun for all customers if the free class were random. There would be a much better variety of match ups going on. The problem is obviously that people are much less likely to register if they can use every class at full power randomly. In Astral Tournament, power 12 spells were disabled for the unregistered. I don't think people would be happy with that either. Probably the best compromise would be to make Illusion and 1 class from the expansion free.
| Kaylee | 2010-03-25 03:44:34 |
@Falcorn:
Would it make the game more fun if everybody could play as any of the
classes for free? Sure it would! That would be great! Except that the
developers would never have made the game in the first place if they
didn't think they could make money with it. Letting free players have
access to the full multiplayer experience would be a terrible idea
because it removes almost all of the incentive to buy the game. And
restricting free players to random is barely a restriction at all. I'd
wager that well over half of the currently paying customers wouldn't
have spent the money if they could have played random for free.
An idea that results in less revenue is a bad one. That one argument
counters everything you've said, and it's been made time and time again
by many different people. Your idea is a bad one.
The developer's idea to switch the free class to Illusion and nerf it
slightly while doing so was probably a bad idea as well. I think that
will hurt them in the long run.
| Fail22 | 2010-03-25 03:47:32 |
Thanks for the info. How did I miss that?
The reason it is trolling is because the idea that people don't think his suggestions are good only because they want to win against non-playing noobs is both stupid and inflammatory. It is the type of statement you make if your goal is to troll. Most of the people here play a wide variety of classes, and Kaylee was playing mostly Mech back when it was not considered good. These players also actively seek out better players whenever possible.
Your argument seems to be that doing X will make game more fun for players, therefore developers should do X. As HAS been addressed in this post, such reasoning is fallacious.
Since I personally think random vs. random are the best games, I'd be quite happy to play that. So I'll grant you that. No one is arguing against this cause its the WRONG argument. To go farther, wouldn't the game be best if it was free. Of course.
The problem, why waste energy advocating for a solution that developers would be crazy to adopt. But of course, feel free to convince them of that you'll save me 20$. But, the relevant argument should be addressed at developers.
And it wouldn't address an issue for paying players, that all classes aren't optimally balanced. Isn't the better solution to give Illusion more for the long game. A solid Illusion 6 and 8 card, and fix 7 the way it used to be. I think if anything only small changes are needed.
| Falcorn | 2010-03-25 04:05:52 |
When a suggestion makes 70% of the matches you play in this game more varied and challenging it's not automatically a bad idea because you think it will make the devs less money. They've already milked the playerbase for the cost of the game and the expansion, people who planned on buying it have bought it so I don't think it would bankrupt them to make the free class random. And yes making this an overall free game would be better but that's illogical, making the free class random is very reasonable and there would still be incentives for people to pay for the game if they haven't, in return making 70% of your gaming experience more fun. Instead the Dev's chose to make 70% of their playerbase use a gimp class that they nerfed so that people will be encouraged to buy the game in order to be better. Everyone on this board "claims" that they don't like having an edge just for paying but then I go into spectro and notice that 95% of the games I play against paid players is with sorcery as it's the most OP and easy to win with class right now. In fact I would go as far as to say that changing the free class to random would not lose them money but gain them. When your game is immensly more fun, which in your own words have said it would be, the paid subscriptions will follow. When free players aren't getting steamrolled by people who paid money purely due to classes they'll stick around to the game instead of being shyed away right off the bat like they are now, so then not only do you have more players in general but more players who have a chance of paying for the game.
| Kaylee | 2010-03-25 04:49:46 |
If your argument is that giving more things away for free will lead to more money for the developers in the future, that's fine. You might even be right about that. It sounds like a pretty risky business model to me, though, and I think its obvious why the developers chose to go a different route. Nobody ignored your arguments, like you're claiming. We don't believe your idea makes good financial sense, and we told you as much. The end.
| Fail22 | 2010-03-25 05:05:17 |
I don't buy that free to choose is much better than random. Its interesting that you think that it is sufficiently different to justify people paying 20$, yet you don't pay yourself for the game?
Ok anyone whos planned on buying it will have bought it so might as well make it free for everyone and everyone will be better off. Essentially the same logic as what you said, do you agree with this statement.
"When your game is immensly more fun, which in your own words have said
it would be, the paid subscriptions will follow." Umm people pay for the differential in fun between no pay and pay. Your suggestion removes all of that by making me not want to pay.
I would wager the difference between classes is 6% of the game and skill 94%.
So players ranked 8+, is the situation really that 70-95% of people are playing Sorcerer. Hopefully I'll find out soon.
| Dominant | 2010-03-25 07:41:00 |
falcorn
3 of your arguments:
1.
illu as random is the worst weekest nerfed class. - wrong its a mid, buffed class (master it)
2.
Give everybody a random option to make the game more fun for everybody. - One word - money (ern some)
3.About new classes being so super great comparing to illu:
sorcery vs control isare so week it's almoust sad, 90 % of the games are mine, and i personaly think best is the weekest class atm
demon is the only nice class out of the 3 mentioned (false argument)
Modified by Dominant on 2010-03-25 07:41:54 | wiggin | 2010-03-25 08:23:10 |
Are all the low levels who have bought the game really playing sorcery?
| Falcorn | 2010-03-25 08:24:07 |
See you're not even getting the point. I can have the paid version, it doesn't change the fact that 70% of my and everyone elses games will be against one class that is as stated by many players one of the weakest classes right now. Making it random would make the game more fun overall as you've said which would earn them more money, I don't think it's a bad idea at all.
| Kaylee | 2010-03-25 08:26:42 |
No.. I'm getting your point just fine. I'm just disagreeing with it. I think that it would make the game more fun overall, but that it would probably lose the developers money because it removes one of the primary incentives for players to pay for the game at all. And Wiggin, I've seen no evidence of the low levels playing sorcery, but I'm stuck in the mid-levels so who knows. I also haven't seen any evidence of it being an overpowered class, but maybe I just haven't met the right opponent yet. Is sorcery viewed as overpowered? I've only seen it complained about here. Modified by Kaylee on 2010-03-25 08:33:04 Yeah I don't know if it's overpowered. I have seen it alot more though now that the expansion has gone live. During beta it seemed like beast was the class of choice for awhile though so maybe it's just what I've ran into. I do feel that the new classes are alot better than illusion though regardless. I also feel that Falcorn is making some valid points though, it's undeniable that it would make the game much more fun overall which is what the dev's should work on. Making their game good should be their primary concern, an improvement this good would cause alot more newbs to stay I feel which would end up bringing them money.
| dominat | 2010-03-25 10:25:25 |
@wiggin
yeh a lot of newbs play sorcery and they find it super strong heh :)
@kaylee
i dont see sorcery overpowered at all i see it as a week class, but thats maby becouse i play control
but i can see it's easy for unexpierienced players, at low skills play its more efficient (simply it's easy to play)
so they see it a strong class becouse its easy to play, but in my opinion it cant be strong without at least one creature to pick from maby, im wrong
@LxSxD
"Making their game good should be their primary concern," for your good, for theirs erning as much $ as they can
"an improvement this good would cause alot more newbs to stay I feel which would end up bringing them money. "
as somone mentioned before almost nobody would buy the game if random would be free
Sorcery is definitely not a weak class. It just can have a near hopeless matchup against control.
Modified by LPML on 2010-03-25 10:47:32 | wiggin | 2010-03-25 11:07:57 |
>Kaylee
I haven't heard any talk about sorcery being overpowered. I can't really tell about it yet, I need to play matches with it against top players. What I think so far:
1 - Weak
2 - Weak
3 - Neat card
4 - With some draws, insanely powerful
5 - Dunno yet. Fun to use with earth 3.
6,7 - Good to deal damage with, but not great for board control.
8 - Very powerful
| dominat | 2010-03-25 11:19:49 |
i just had a bunch of games with my second char playing illu
about 10 games vs a 13 lv sorcer 9 wins 1 game lost he had 5 life left
its harder to play holy with ilu and much harder vs chaos
this topic is crapy
falcorn posting that its 70% of game lost at the start illu vs sorc give me a break
| Zannoland | 2010-03-25 18:46:06 |
>Kaylee
I haven't heard any talk about sorcery being overpowered. I can't really tell about it yet, I need to play matches with it against top players. What I think so far:
1 - Weak
2 - Weak
3 - Neat card
4 - With some draws, insanely powerful
5 - Dunno yet. Fun to use with earth 3.
6,7 - Good to deal damage with, but not great for board control.
8 - Very powerful I think 6 is a real sleeper card whose power has yet to be realized, depending on what the vulnerability of your hand is (ex: astral guard, tornado, stone rain) you can time the spell to zap that mana. i think once people realize how powerful this card is they'll be forced to play around it like they would hypnosis. 7 isn't good for board control in the purest sense, but it's a very powerful endgame card. i have seen games where the stun effect tipped it in their favor whereas disintegrate would have lost. it's like a different version of ancient giant, in that it tips one-turn victories in your favor.
| anonypro | 2010-03-26 15:22:44 |
I like sorcery because the ratio of spells to creatures in the game is
low; and especially clearing spells are very good.. Draws where you
barely have any spells suck. Sorcery gives you a nice diversity of
spells that both heal your creatures and damage opponents creatures,
giving you lots of options...
It is especially hard to play against before you get used to the cards, and many of them take you by surprise.
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-29 01:48:44 |
I'm not denying the fact that illusion is winnable, it's just at a clear disadvantage especially against the new classes. Again you two just wrote a combined 5 pages of text up there but not once did you guys disagree that making the free class random would add tons of variety and skill to this game. But I guess you guys enjoy getting gimme wins against players with unfair matches too much. Stop trolling.
By trolling, I mean suggesting a stupid solution (let's give free players 9 classes so they will be overwhelmed and quit!) instead of a sensible one (buff Illusion).
I thought you had some sensible ideas before, it's sad to see you fail so hard like this.
Modified by garcia1000 on 2010-03-29 01:49:50 | Ayayayay | 2010-03-29 07:12:30 |
Buffing illusion .... not a bad idea
Other option, as suggested, would be to allow two free classes. For example, Illusion and Control, or Illusion and Death
That way there would be a lot of more variety of duels even against free players. So far I am enjoying myself, but playing against illusion time after time is getting old quickly :)
| Falcorn | 2010-03-29 16:10:14 |
Garcia why don't you stop trolling you haven't brought any ideas to the thread your just derailing shit talking about how great illusion is when we all know that it's nerfed and at a disadvantage. And ayayaya, yes another class would bring about some variety, maybe they could give you like half of the classes and force you to play random with them. This seems like a very good idea, it would still encourage people to buy the game and at the same time would stop the large amount of redundant games you play against only illusion. Everyone complained when holy was the free class because it was boring to verse time after time and it was hard to beat. Well now that it's illusion it's still boring to play against all the time, the only diffrence now is that it's not strong at all so people who paid are having fun getting gimme wins. I'm assuming good players like Wiggins who grew tired of holy will as well grow tired of versing illusion all the time. No class will be fun to verse all the time, forcing free players into just one, and especially one that is nerfed and terrible is not a good idea Garcia, bring something constructive or don't bother posting.
| garcia1000 | 2010-03-30 02:44:59 |
I already posted the constructive thing (buff Illusion) which you managed to fail to read. Is that because your eyesight is poor, or the part of your brain responsible for language is impaired?
It seems the part of your brain responsible for paragraphs is similarly impaired. Anyway, I've had enough of reading your things in this thread | Dominant | 2010-03-30 22:13:35 |
Garcia chill
hes just a 14 years old kid
with a lv 3
He never worked form money so he's great idea is: yeh game makers give it for nothing to us
why you even care not mentioning getting pisst off
| Falcorn | 2010-03-31 02:37:53 |
Yes we all know you've said buff illusion 95 times, it doesn't change the fact that most of the games you play will be against one class which at the moment is gimped but even if it wasn't will still get boring. Dominant and Garcia you're both tools, we know that you paid for the game it doesn't change the fact that over half of the players in this game haven't so maybe instead of having their game be redundant and shitty forcing everyone to play the same style of games over and over they could consider some of actual suggestions on this board with probably the most reasonable being to allow free players to use 3 or 4 of the classes which would spice this game up overall a ton. And Garcia I didn't know that we were going through and proofreading our posts, I guess your sentance structure skills are impaired from the above post you made, very cool bringing grammar into your argument because you can't make any other valid points.
| Wavelength | 2010-04-05 05:36:59 |
There are two ways to play Illusion. The first is to go for a quick kill. Do whatever you can to gain a slight board advantage, and then once you have it do whatever you can to leak the maximum amount of damage through to the opponent every turn. You'll likely have to spend your mana in some very inefficient ways in order to maximize damage. And at some point you're going to stop placing creatures altogether and focus completely on finishing spells. If your opponent has enough healing to survive your assault, you will absolutely lose because you have not been preparing for a drawn out fight at all.
I think this style of game has actually gotten a lot stronger since the patch. The changes to Air 4 and 5 are huge.
The other style is to focus instead on strong board control and healing and go for a long game. Illusion actually has more scaling cards than any of the other houses, so it has some very strong options in long games. Illusion 1, 2, and 6 can all be used to help counter any strong elementals or other powerful creatures you might encounter, and Illusion 7 and 8 become absolute monsters if they live long enough.
The trouble is that Illusion's main tools in winning these long games have all been nerfed. And sometimes the "quick kill" style games are unwinnable, even with the new changes. One of the most interesting things about Illusion is trying to decide which sort of game to play. "When do I go in for the kill, and when do I invest in a stronger board presence?" That's really a fundamental question that all of the classes have to ask, but it seems much more important when playing Illusion, partly because they can move in for the kill much more quickly than the other classes, and partly because their "investments in board presence" are often literal investments that require several turns to pay off (Illusion 7 and 8).
I'm a little bit worried that Illusion will become more of a one trick pony with the new changes. Their quick game has been improved and their long game has been weakened. I've been playing a lot of Illusion lately, and I find myself rushing in for the kill within the first few turns of almost every match. Now that's been a lot of fun, and its certainly been working very well for me, but its not as interesting as it used to be, IMO.
Note that I'm not complaining that Illusion got weaker. I actually think it got stronger, on average, because even in the older version Illusion's best bet was to go in for a quick kill most of the time. I'm just sad to see Illusion lose some of its flavor (if my worries prove to be justified).
Sorry for overquoting this but I just got the chance to read the post and it's a very interesting item to ponder. I always felt the "first way" was the best to play Illusion, even though I've tried for both routes. Yes, it's true that Illusion's 2, 3, and 6 (and to some extent 4) counter big, strong, expensive monsters nicely, and that 7 and 8 have scalability. The problem is that most of the other classes have better ways to either support or make better use of their big, strong, expensive monsters, which makes a drawn-out game very dicey from Illusion's standpoint. I do agree that it's sad to see Illusion become more of a one-trick pony (although unlike you I feel it did get nerfed with this update, all things considered). I don't know whether that's what they were going for but I think the devs should really consider bringing the dichotomy back into the class next time they make updates to the cards.
| wiggin | 2010-04-05 09:10:37 |
Ok, Falcon. We've heard your (silly) point now. The designers need players to buy the game, not to give most of it away for free. Actually it's rather neat that it's fully playable for free. Modified by wiggin on 2010-04-05 14:23:18 | Winterbloom | 2010-04-05 21:23:09 |
...
Sorry for overquoting this but I just got the chance to read the post and it's a very interesting item to ponder.
I always felt the "first way" was the best to play Illusion, even though I've tried for both routes. Yes, it's true that Illusion's 2, 3, and 6 (and to some extent 4) counter big, strong, expensive monsters nicely, and that 7 and 8 have scalability. The problem is that most of the other classes have better ways to either support or make better use of their big, strong, expensive monsters, which makes a drawn-out game very dicey from Illusion's standpoint.
I do agree that it's sad to see Illusion become more of a one-trick pony (although unlike you I feel it did get nerfed with this update, all things considered). I don't know whether that's what they were going for but I think the devs should really consider bringing the dichotomy back into the class next time they make updates to the cards.
Side note... I consider Illusion a versitile TWO trick pony.
Trick 1 - Rapid player damage:
Illusion 3
Illusion 4
Illusion 5
Illusion 7
Illusion 8
Trick 2 - Clearing the enemy's board, survive global clears:
Illusion 1
Illusion 2
Illusion 6
Illusion 8
| Wavelength | 2010-04-06 05:09:43 |
... Side note... I consider Illusion a versitile TWO trick pony. Trick 1 - Rapid player damage: Illusion 3 Illusion 4 Illusion 5 Illusion 7 Illusion 8 Trick 2 - Clearing the enemy's board, survive global clears: Illusion 1 Illusion 2 Illusion 6 Illusion 8
Not saying I'm necessarily right, but here are the way I see things. You clearly think otherwise, so could you explain your reasoning a little? Rapid Player Damage: Oracle fits Illusion's theme of Direct Damage, but it's not rapid. Compare to Spectral Assassin: Spectral Assasin does 12 direct damage with 5 Illusion Mana, 24 damage with 10, and 36 with 15. Oracle does 0 direct damage with 5 Illusion Mana (because it hasn't been played yet), 6 damage with 10, and 36 with 15. It usually doesn't survive beyond that (and sometimes the game doesn't even reach that long if you play a Phantom Warrior or something early on), so it's as much a board control card as a direct damage one. The same kind of logic applies to Hypnotyst; most of the damage you're doing comes from the fact that it can do some damage to the board every 4 turns. Clearing the Board; Surviving Clears: I think of this as two different strategies which don't necessarily go well together. Illusion's theme might be "punishing big monsters", which would explain the presence of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6, but I don't see how cards like Madness and Hypnotyst play particularly well together. Generally, if you're using Madness to clear the enemy's board, you're going to lose board advantage anyway. Yes, you could then try to clear the board with Stone Rain or something, but Stone Rain works best with Phantom Warrior and if you have Madness, you don't have Phantom Warrior. Additionally, Illusion's 6 and 8 cards don't play well with Stone Rain at all. So I don't really see what you're seeing here. Finally, using Illuson 8 to pump Illusion 6 used to work fairly well, but with the nerf to Hypnotyst, it just doesn't seem viable anymore.
| Winterbloom | 2010-04-06 11:33:59 |
What I really mean to call it is 'dominating board control'
Illusion 1, Illusion 6 and Illusion 8 work as the board clearers. However, Illusion 1 is a generally timid card and should only be used when it would be the finishing hit, or produce more damage than a flame wave.
Illusion 6 is my favorite for controling the board. It's rather like playing a Death 4 and Fire 6 in one shot, without the sacrifice. It's a strong damage spell which doubles as a heavy creature.
Illusion 8 is similar, as it doubles as a Fire 2, but also increases the frequency you can drop more Illusion 6 or Illusion 8's. I don't see the nerf as being so bad since he's still an iron clad mana producer and firewall. You don't play him for his ability to control the slot opposite. You play him for his creature damage and mana gain. I infrequently play it, so I agree it isn't usually the best choice when it's in your hand, but if the opponent doesn't have mana stock piled and there's no emergency on the board, it's a good play.
Illusion 2 serves to control the board by resisting global clears. A common pattern I follow is Illusion 2, Water 4, Illusion 2, (Water 8 / Earth 9). Then, when large creatures come out to oppose the board, save up for Illusion 6 (probably the last ill card you'll play in the game at this point) and focus the remaining effort on opponent-side creature damage (Fire 2, Fire 6, Fire 9, Air 8, etc.). So to answer your question, I believe Illusion 6 and 8 do play well with Stone Rain. They just play well AFTER the stone rain :)
As for the player damage, Illusion 7 is my least favorite. But I see him as valuable when you have Earth 6 in your hand. And if you don't have illusion 5, of course.
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